Not an idiot. It's just that Lusternia now has so many mechanics that small things that can be of great help tend to get buried under others, unseen and unknown. This is also why I am averse to adding in even more mechanics to complicate things.

This all is majorly off topic, is bringing up negative feelings, and has nothing to do with increasing our player numbers. We should instead focus our discussion on making the game more newbie friendly, as well as strategies for recuiting new players.

Talan:

stuff

Honestly, this is pretty disgustingly offensive. I have played for some time in both Mag and Seren and in no way feel that the atmosphere is somehow hostile or hateful. Mag wasn't particluarly good to me as a novice (mostly, I was ignored, but I got help when asked), but Serenwilde certainly was (as was Tully, who even took me hunting). Further, the implication that everyone who disagrees with you hasn't been playing recently is both rude and wrong. Finally, calling the large number of ideas put forward, some of which are well though out, "pretty stupid" is increadibly inflamatory, and I would ask that you at least try to be civil before you bother to post again. Certainly, posts like this do nothing to ease the general bitterness between the factions.

...negative feelings are most certainly tied to player retention. This is a game, and people play it for fun.

I don't think anyone's calling anyone else an idiot, but I do happen to agree that there sure seems to be a lot of anger and bitterness (well, more bitternes to me) coming from the other side to the point that I'm sure such attitudes leak over IC and affect their morale. There's a reason why many people (not just Gloms and co.) think that Seren is known as the Bastion of Bitterness â„¢. Smoke and fire, you know.

Really, group combat has nothing to do with retention, so I don't know what it's still doing here. But hey, let's keep talking about it because I have to admit, it's still interesting.

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foolofsound:

Honestly, this is pretty disgustingly offensive. I have played for some time in both Mag and Seren and in no way ffeel that the atmosphere is somehow hostile or hateful. Mag wasn't particluarly good to me as a novice, but Serenwilde certainly was. Further, the implication that everyone who disagrees with you hasn't been playing recently is both rude and wrong. Finally, calling the large number of ideas put forward, some of which are well though out "pretty stupid" is increadibly inflamatory, and I would ask that you at least try to be civil before you bother to post again. Certainly, posts like this do nothing to ease the general bitterness between the factions.

I've played an alt in Magnagora recently, and while I might not call the environment hostile or hateful, it's certainly not inspiring either. Seeing people (I will name no names) running around acting like they own the place and it's their playground didn't exactly make me want to do a lot to help them. Sure, "it's their RP", but honestly... you can only justify so much in the name of RP.

Ssaliss:

I've played an alt in Magnagora recently, and while I might not call the environment hostile or hateful, it's certainly not inspiring either. Seeing people (I will name no names) running around acting like they own the place and it's their playground didn't exactly make me want to do a lot to help them. Sure, "it's their RP", but honestly... you can only justify so much in the name of RP.

I certainly agree; most Mags could certainly do more to help the enviroment, and certainly there are certain people in both Mag and Serenwilde whose egos get in the way of good relations. When I started in Mag as a Geomancer, I was ignored for a significant amount of time until Esano inducted me proper. I know that there are a number of good people in Mag, and Seren too, though, that do their best to help novices.

I have a semi-active alt in Serenwilde (Moondancers, specifically). While there are certainly helpful people here and there in Serenwilde, the general atmosphere tends to be...dead. I was logged in on said alt when Celina started raiding, and comparing that to when someone hits a Daughter on EthGlom, the defense seemed unorganized and without direction. It doesn't help that the communication does seem to be a bit on the bad side, commune-level. In Glomdoring there are posts here and there regarding revolt/domoth/flare results (even losses; we like to celebrate effort), but in Seren the posts are few and far between, and they're not on topics that inspire confidence in the organization, too.

I think it's not enough to teach newbies basic CGT, sip heal, apply mending, kick rat, transverse x. Tutors have to instill a certain amount of pride and patriotism (or whatever) to newcomers. Whenever I do an introduction, I take the time to talk to Shadowbound about what it means to be part of the SDs and Glom, about how we're omg better than everyone (bordering on zealotry). Imbue them with the identity of the place, so that they at least have an idea of what that organization is all about.

The silence in Mag is probably the absolute biggest problem, yes. I was logged on as Ssaliss during a revolt, and was around for the entire duration (I think it was a peaced revolt that I even participated in a bit; thanks for those, admins!), and logged onto my Mag a little while later to check the history of CTs. I know Mag participated in the revolt, but there wasn't a word on CT said about it. That, to me, means that the "bigshots" in Mag sit on a clan and chatter, and everyone who isn't in the clan won't have much of a chance to participate, if they even know what's happening.

EDIT: And following Alac's post, the newsposts in Mag aren't exactly plentiful either. Until recently, not a single newspost had been done for several IC years, and that post was only because a shop was sold or something. So yeah, there's a massive divide between the haves and the have-nots.

I've read through most of this thread, and beyond the first couple of pages, it's all pretty stupid. You want fair? Play a board game. Players influence the field here. Make the effort to improve things both for yourselves and the people around you. Will it automatically make you a winner? No. But it will keep you from feeling like a loser, whatever the outcome of any given competition. You will just ignore this and continue to feel hard done by. I'm not sorry my org is so much better than yours though. We've worked really hard to make it that way.

Finally....somebody said it like it is.

Board games aren't fair. Why do you think that you play to stalemate if you get black in Chess?

You wiley ninja you.

foolofsound:

Honestly, this is pretty disgustingly offensive. I have played for some time in both Mag and Seren and in no way feel that the atmosphere is somehow hostile or hateful. Mag wasn't particluarly good to me as a novice (mostly, I was ignored, but I got help when asked), but Serenwilde certainly was (as was Tully, who even took me hunting). Further, the implication that everyone who disagrees with you hasn't been playing recently is both rude and wrong. Finally, calling the large number of ideas put forward, some of which are well though out, "pretty stupid" is increadibly inflamatory, and I would ask that you at least try to be civil before you bother to post again. Certainly, posts like this do nothing to ease the general bitterness between the factions.

I'm glad that you were able to find fun being ignored in Magnagora and that a rogue was able to improve your time in Serenwilde. (I'm being sarcastic right there. These are poor testimonials for either org.) My implication was not that anyone who disagrees with me clearly hasn't been playing the game. I have noticed some commentary on a state of affairs which I consider outdated, and made a little barb at that. Finally, yes, I do consider many of the ideas to implement forced "fairness" to be stupid. I'm not trying to ease your bitterness, only you can do that! I have made some helpful suggestions as to how, even.

*rembers a revolt wherein Sidd spammed two pages worth of CT Revolt*

(not kidding)

If you're concentrating on uneven numbers within factions, I've a bit of an idea of why that is. When I first decided to try Lusternia again, I logged on to an old character I had in Magnagora. Of course, she wasn't played for very long back when I created her. At any rate, I found Magnagora to be utterly boring. No one seemed to talk. The only RP she could find was with the char who is now the GM, and he proved to be a nice enough person. Nothing happened. At all.

In saying that, organizations should make their orgs more enjoyable for players in order to attract them. This is why I created a char in Glomdoring. They make it fun to play Lusternia, even for those of us who are relatively clueless still. If the smaller orgs come up with ways to engage their players, they will retain them. In doing that, you'll even out the teams. This isn't a mechanic problem. It's a player problem. Lack of motivation. Sitting around while logged in, doing nothing but bashing/influencing. There are numerous ways to interact with the members of your orgs. Be creative, and find ways to do that. I promise that your orgs will grow if you concentrate more on interaction.

Talan:
and that a rogue was able to improve your time in Serenwilde. (I'm being sarcastic right there. These are poor testimonials for either org.)

...really? That's how you read that? I thought he was being unnecessarily harsh to your points, but maybe he was spot on after all.

The thing is, retention issues come in waves.

A person might get over the hurdle of navigating all the beginner help files and daunting reading we instantly hit newbies with ("please read X, Y, Z, and sometimes B to begin"), only become bored of the bashing in Newton, or the grind to 20. A person who gets past that point may quit when there's no one to help them graduate from guild noviceship.

But someone might get through that with no problem, only to quit a couple weeks later to, well. I'll stop going on and on, but my point is that the issues being brought up are getting a bit off track, but aren't necessarily irrelevant either. A new player is obviously not going to know that Glomdoring has been dominant for as long as they have be(







If a revolt hits while someone's only level 18, they may be oblivious to how frustrating the revolt itself will be — but they may also pick up on the resulting frustrated attitude of their org, while they're doing their thing.

I totally agree that Glom, and Shadowdancers in particular are particularly good at making RP fun. Certainly, my short-term Shadowdancer alt was my best novice experience, and I have tried to export some of that experience to how I deal with novices in Mag. The reason I didn't stick around wasn't novice unfriendliness, it was a unreconcilable personality clash with the leadership and a style of RP that I simply don't have a taste for.

I still feel that having a single org be dominant for RL years at a time is not healthy; it stifles competition and causes resentment. Mechanics that promote faster changes in org fortunes, and that reduce the impact of double-wins, are important to the health of the game. None of this, however, impacts novice retention, it is a simply gripe that EVERYONE has with the game (when Glom was losing, they had the same gripe; I've seen the old posts).

The thing is, if orgs can keep their players, no mechanic fix will be needed. I can almost guarantee you that even if the admin made some mechanical changes, it wouldn't do much good. It's down to the orgs themselves to keep the players that come there. Let's face it; most new chars are probably going to be alts. These people know which orgs are more entertaining to play in.

ForgotOldForumName:

Let's face it; most new chars are probably going to be alts.

Even if this is true, I can speak from experience that assuming a new character is an alt is the quickest way to making a person feel, well, not "unwelcome," but hesitant about how welcome they feel. Except in cases where it's very obvious ("she is enrolled in the University and has about 290% your might") I treat everyone as though they're actually a new player when I come into contact with them. Better to accidentally somewhat condescend to an experienced player, than to leave an actual new person frustrated.

I helped a promising novice in Hallifax get his first Mercy and Perfection enchantments last night/this morning before bed, and he had so many questions (about such minutiae) I can't tell if he's new or very experienced and playing a chosen role. But I know that when I see him around the same places as me, I'm acting like retaining him is my own responsibility, and I think more people should do it that way. Even if he's an alt, helping him have an enjoyable experience just means that alt is more active than it would be, too.

And he's good at Vengeance, dammit, he needs to stay.

The boiled down point people are making as a critique of that idea, fools, is that "fun" in Lusternia has a different definition for every single player. I derive a lot of fun from being a scary overlord with a quirky facade who makes every person's shadow sacrosanct because of some enigmatic puppetmaster we call Night. Woo, it's fun, and if you take a shot for every synonym for "shadow" we throw around, you're in for a real treat.

Other people like designing. Other people like shopkeeping. Other people sign on to farheal and farcure other people because they want to be the healers of the other people because other people make them happiest when they're healthy. And so on. The point I'm making is that other people find fun in the game, and then translate that fun to other people, without having to be in the winning organization.

If you are a person who cannot see beyond the ratio of "losing," you are never going to be happy unless you either rally your organization to superior heights or join the winning side. I am very sad for you, because life will be hard.
People who keep bringing up Old Glom are right when they say that we were literally the dead horse people kept smacking around, but I still had fun because my definition of the word wasn't your definition.


If you are going to demand a mechanical solution to "fix" a "problem," you have to make sure that the problem you are seeing is noticed by a majority of the people in the game. So far, only a few people--a few very loud people--are pointing to injustices from a "losing" perspective that is vastly exaggerated.


Alacardael and Talan are right when they say that a lot more goes into making Glomdoring fun for the majority of our players that doesn't come from making everyone concerned about "winning." When we lose, the people who tend to do the "winning back" get mad, sure, and their attitudes threaten the overall happiness of the place, but enough of us are determined to keep morale high that they're silenced pretty quickly.

This was true in Old Glom. It was definitely a different time in our playing history, and it was true then, as well, that the loudest complainers and whiners outshone those of us who were still having a ball roleplaying and designing and leading in a Glomdoring that looked very different from the Glomdoring of today.

You will also notice that those old, complaining whiners are not prevalently online anymore. And look how we flourish!

Hey, I find playing in Serenwilde fun. It can be pretty frustrating sometimes, sure, but at the end of the day I would not be there if I didn't still find it fun. People either want to learn to fight or they don't. Similarly, people can either become top tier, or they can't. Just because Serenwilde currently lacks these people, it doesn't mean outsiders can now start pointing the finger at the rest of us.

I also find it really strange how I hear so many stories of "I once created an alt in Serenwilde and got snuggled within five minutes". This always seems to be the reason people say they don't want to play in Serenwilde, but I really can't see this happening. People do show PDAs but that's generally to people who they are okay with. I find it really hard to believe the same doesn't happen in at least one other org, but I never seem to hear complaints about their alts being snuggled.

People flock to the winning side. Lusternia's history has proven this. Once things start looking bad, many people will choose the easy way out and either join the other side or stop playing at all. If anything, the finger should be pointed at the people who deserted the org when they needed it most and not the ones who still remain and try their best to make things better.