Unknown2012-01-30 23:45:46
'Stoopid' right, sorry for ever mentioning the idea in the first place and trying to liven up things a little. Let's all limit ourselves to dingbat hats and reincarnation daggers.
Xenthos2012-01-30 23:48:41
I don't see anything wrong with either of those. If you don't like them, don't buy them (I won't), but what's the problem with more Demigod choices? It's not like adding things that are visual perks will crowd out other things that you might like more. You get to pick and choose what you want!
Unknown2012-01-30 23:53:18
GealbhanBheag:
'Stoopid' right, sorry for ever mentioning the idea in the first place and trying to liven up things a little. Let's all limit ourselves to dingbat hats and reincarnation daggers.
Didn't mean to offend. I'm just pretty sure that the admins will NEVER let you play a non-humanoid. It would make a number of messages make zero sense.
Unknown2012-01-31 02:21:14
Hmm...
Demi/post demi powers:
- I am emphatically against more stat bonuses. Apart from widening the potential gap between demis and "demi ++s", which doesn't need to happen at all, it opens a pandoras box of mechanical issues.
-No balance/eq/sip bonuses for the same reason.
-DMP I'm less worried about, so long as it is minor, but honestly, direct combat powers in general just add more confusion and ansgt than they do benefit.
As an aside, in general, giving extra power accessibility to the demi+ set is, among other things, a disincentive for me to purchase credits. In all probability, I will never be demi+, for a whole slew of reasons. Things that make me feel like a lower-class player, or that there will be a glass ceiling between me and the mechanical demi+, generally don't make me feel very good. I can't imagine I'm alone in this. While VAs and TAs are always going to have access to cooler stuff, they don't need stuff that is raw, general mechanical advantages that they have either hard access to alone (Demis straight can't take it) or soft exclusivity through their MUCH higher points cap.
Because the latter is quite likely, I'm against that sort of demi power in general, beyond what is there, and is accessible.
Races:
I am against the Orclach changes. They are workable as is. They aren't perfect, and they're mana kill prone, but they're very good at what they do and survivable. The suggested changes make them more like some sort of half orclach thing. Less vulnerable, less resistant. Meh. I love my Orclach the way they are and would be sad to see this change.
Other than these things, I either applaud the changes or am indifferent enough to forego comment.
Demi/post demi powers:
- I am emphatically against more stat bonuses. Apart from widening the potential gap between demis and "demi ++s", which doesn't need to happen at all, it opens a pandoras box of mechanical issues.
-No balance/eq/sip bonuses for the same reason.
-DMP I'm less worried about, so long as it is minor, but honestly, direct combat powers in general just add more confusion and ansgt than they do benefit.
As an aside, in general, giving extra power accessibility to the demi+ set is, among other things, a disincentive for me to purchase credits. In all probability, I will never be demi+, for a whole slew of reasons. Things that make me feel like a lower-class player, or that there will be a glass ceiling between me and the mechanical demi+, generally don't make me feel very good. I can't imagine I'm alone in this. While VAs and TAs are always going to have access to cooler stuff, they don't need stuff that is raw, general mechanical advantages that they have either hard access to alone (Demis straight can't take it) or soft exclusivity through their MUCH higher points cap.
Because the latter is quite likely, I'm against that sort of demi power in general, beyond what is there, and is accessible.
Races:
I am against the Orclach changes. They are workable as is. They aren't perfect, and they're mana kill prone, but they're very good at what they do and survivable. The suggested changes make them more like some sort of half orclach thing. Less vulnerable, less resistant. Meh. I love my Orclach the way they are and would be sad to see this change.
Other than these things, I either applaud the changes or am indifferent enough to forego comment.
Enyalida2012-01-31 02:28:58
I agree with the stat bonus stuff (and I figure that admins probably will also), but I'm not sure where you are going with this:
The majority of the changes/additions proposed to demigods are to give demigod players more access to higher/cooler/more useful powers, thus doing exactly the opposite of what you seem to be warning against in this bit of your post? All of this +stat bonus stuff was intended for demigods, to be included with a weight adjustment to make getting more on the increased list of stuff feasible.
Rainydays:
As an aside, in general, giving extra power accessibility to the demi+ set is, among other things, a disincentive for me to purchase credits. In all probability, I will never be demi+, for a whole slew of reasons. Things that make me feel like a lower-class player, or that there will be a glass ceiling between me and the mechanical demi+, generally don't make me feel very good. I can't imagine I'm alone in this. While VAs and TAs are always going to have access to cooler stuff, they don't need stuff that is raw, general mechanical advantages that they have either hard access to alone (Demis straight can't take it) or soft exclusivity through their MUCH higher points cap.
Because the latter is quite likely, I'm against that sort of demi power in general, beyond what is there, and is accessible.
The majority of the changes/additions proposed to demigods are to give demigod players more access to higher/cooler/more useful powers, thus doing exactly the opposite of what you seem to be warning against in this bit of your post? All of this +stat bonus stuff was intended for demigods, to be included with a weight adjustment to make getting more on the increased list of stuff feasible.
Unknown2012-01-31 02:37:08
It is a general warning. Its too easy to see the carrot and miss the stick sometimes. I look at it in terms of the hard cap on demi weight, and what will be done/possible with the new powers.
If they set the cap equal for everyone, and differentiate demi ++ with accessibility to the powers they want them to have exclusively, my complaint mostly goes away.
Failing that, if they just let us plebians buy demi weight (just, not directly with gold, I can smell the drama from the potential future like I was an aeonics user), and say demi++ gets that weight for free, that would work too.
If they set the cap equal for everyone, and differentiate demi ++ with accessibility to the powers they want them to have exclusively, my complaint mostly goes away.
Failing that, if they just let us plebians buy demi weight (just, not directly with gold, I can smell the drama from the potential future like I was an aeonics user), and say demi++ gets that weight for free, that would work too.
Turnus2012-01-31 03:05:04
If one part of the report is reliant on another part going through, make sure that's made crystal clear in the report. There's much potential for bitterness if you have a report that is built on the premise of "change A, so that we can change B" - and then B getting changed but not A.
Enyalida2012-01-31 03:06:28
Yeah, there is no point to raising demi weight cap without adding new (and at least somewhat) desirable powers, and no point in adding new powers without raising weight cap.
Unknown2012-01-31 03:11:15
I imagine that's where the feedback would help.
Svorai2012-01-31 05:20:37
Nice report, Shuface.
Choke: I think it's fine as it is. There's too much hysteria about the skill. Nerfing it like this will have the skill completely avoidable and useless. I feel sad for the SDs.
Sap: I'm not so worried about the time delays of Sap, but the 'no point cleanse player while the druid is in the room' idea is a good change. Agree that anyone who is still sapped after 30 seconds deserves to be dead.
Demi: With the favour idea - not sure it would fly with the admin, that being the domain of Gods. But, if it did, I think it has flavour potential. Maybe useable once per in game year, requires said demi to be in an Order (so like a lesser lesser blessing), and have the reason recorded on the Order's logs?
I think the influence buff is fine. I have weakening and empowerment runes and they don't make -that- much of a difference (I can't actually notice it). I can get 23 cha easily, maybe more with favours/Chaos - charisma affects influencing more than those runes do. If the demi power was like the influence runes, I'd get it, but I don't imagine it would help significantly.
I'd love to see more rp options for demihood. When I hit demi... it was kind of lacklustre. Some guild-specific powers would be nice!
Choke: I think it's fine as it is. There's too much hysteria about the skill. Nerfing it like this will have the skill completely avoidable and useless. I feel sad for the SDs.
Sap: I'm not so worried about the time delays of Sap, but the 'no point cleanse player while the druid is in the room' idea is a good change. Agree that anyone who is still sapped after 30 seconds deserves to be dead.
Demi: With the favour idea - not sure it would fly with the admin, that being the domain of Gods. But, if it did, I think it has flavour potential. Maybe useable once per in game year, requires said demi to be in an Order (so like a lesser lesser blessing), and have the reason recorded on the Order's logs?
I think the influence buff is fine. I have weakening and empowerment runes and they don't make -that- much of a difference (I can't actually notice it). I can get 23 cha easily, maybe more with favours/Chaos - charisma affects influencing more than those runes do. If the demi power was like the influence runes, I'd get it, but I don't imagine it would help significantly.
I'd love to see more rp options for demihood. When I hit demi... it was kind of lacklustre. Some guild-specific powers would be nice!
Unknown2012-01-31 08:09:17
Obviously, I am also against the change to Night Choke, heh.
The only real advantages of a Nightuser in Choke is Drink (which is passive h/m and affliction curing), and the fact that the Nightuser can determine beforehand who and when to Choke. Otherwise, identical effects are imposed on the Nightuser and the target - both are placed under an 'aeon' condition.
Night Choke already gives a third-party message on who is Choking whom, which means that it is equally possible for both the offensive and defensive team (we'll define the 'defense' as the team of the target and the 'offense' as the team of the Nightuser) to switch targets to the Nightuser/target. In group fights, it is already common for the Night user to die as often as the targets. Not for lack of trying to survive, too! While Lowmagic Serpent does help the Nightuser immensely, the ability costs 10p (and Choke costs 3p) and fades after a minute (and every time the caster acts offensively), so constantly using them in conjunction just won't last long in a group fight. There is the option for Demigod Refresh Power, true, but that can only be done once an hour, and so hits the same limitations of sustainability during group fights.
* I am balancing the change around Omnitrans Demigod, as is common with Lusternia
* The situations are in group fights because a) solo, the change won't be felt too much (as designed) and B) most of the important fights are group, anyway
Night Choke is the central ability of the skill; everything else practically revolves around it. There are Brumetower and Bonds to stop movement (since the 'cure' for Choke is movement). Steal increases damage of Nightkiss/gaze and Lash (to reach toad-level faster, because Choke is time-pressured; either you kill the target first or the target's team murders you first). Scourge blinds (a very slight hindrance, when the target does not, for some reason, know where exits are for tumbling away to safety) and removes truehearing (barghest only hits undeaf targets). There is... Garb, and Penumbra, and Gloomtide. There is very little else in Night to stack afflictions with that help stick Choke, and ensure survival under it. If people are adamant on making the Choke change, then I propose the whole Night skill be reworked to decentralize the Choke focus.
* Moon does not have the same conditions as Night, since they have passive mana drain with an active aeon, plus passive defense stripping + afflicting
* Despite being specs of the same base skill, it seems like there are two different Visions for Night./Moon
* I am deliberately leaving out tertiaries out of the main discussion, but if you want:
The proposed change would practically make Choke unusable for group fights. 4 seconds is a really long time for both teams to switch targets. In a situation of small offense team - big defense team, using Choke would actually be counterproductive. In a situation of balanced teams, Choke would not have any real benefits, so why risk it at all? In a situation of big offense - small defense, why bother Choking at all, when you already have numerical advantage? Choke would just be icing on top of the cake of victory.
Omg, waaaay longer than anticipated.
The only real advantages of a Nightuser in Choke is Drink (which is passive h/m and affliction curing), and the fact that the Nightuser can determine beforehand who and when to Choke. Otherwise, identical effects are imposed on the Nightuser and the target - both are placed under an 'aeon' condition.
Night Choke already gives a third-party message on who is Choking whom, which means that it is equally possible for both the offensive and defensive team (we'll define the 'defense' as the team of the target and the 'offense' as the team of the Nightuser) to switch targets to the Nightuser/target. In group fights, it is already common for the Night user to die as often as the targets. Not for lack of trying to survive, too! While Lowmagic Serpent does help the Nightuser immensely, the ability costs 10p (and Choke costs 3p) and fades after a minute (and every time the caster acts offensively), so constantly using them in conjunction just won't last long in a group fight. There is the option for Demigod Refresh Power, true, but that can only be done once an hour, and so hits the same limitations of sustainability during group fights.
* I am balancing the change around Omnitrans Demigod, as is common with Lusternia
* The situations are in group fights because a) solo, the change won't be felt too much (as designed) and B) most of the important fights are group, anyway
Night Choke is the central ability of the skill; everything else practically revolves around it. There are Brumetower and Bonds to stop movement (since the 'cure' for Choke is movement). Steal increases damage of Nightkiss/gaze and Lash (to reach toad-level faster, because Choke is time-pressured; either you kill the target first or the target's team murders you first). Scourge blinds (a very slight hindrance, when the target does not, for some reason, know where exits are for tumbling away to safety) and removes truehearing (barghest only hits undeaf targets). There is... Garb, and Penumbra, and Gloomtide. There is very little else in Night to stack afflictions with that help stick Choke, and ensure survival under it. If people are adamant on making the Choke change, then I propose the whole Night skill be reworked to decentralize the Choke focus.
* Moon does not have the same conditions as Night, since they have passive mana drain with an active aeon, plus passive defense stripping + afflicting
* Despite being specs of the same base skill, it seems like there are two different Visions for Night./Moon
* I am deliberately leaving out tertiaries out of the main discussion, but if you want:
- ​choose Hexes for the solofights - afflictions to help keep a target down for Choke, then more afflictions to disable said target
- choose Healing for the groupfights - auras galore for survival, but from experience even it isn't enough to keep up with large group fights
- choose Astrology ... people choose Astrology?!
The proposed change would practically make Choke unusable for group fights. 4 seconds is a really long time for both teams to switch targets. In a situation of small offense team - big defense team, using Choke would actually be counterproductive. In a situation of balanced teams, Choke would not have any real benefits, so why risk it at all? In a situation of big offense - small defense, why bother Choking at all, when you already have numerical advantage? Choke would just be icing on top of the cake of victory.
Omg, waaaay longer than anticipated.
Unknown2012-01-31 08:49:53
Night Choke is the central ability of the skill; everything else practically revolves around it. There are Brumetower and Bonds to stop movement (since the 'cure' for Choke is movement). Steal increases damage of Nightkiss/gaze and Lash (to reach toad-level faster, because Choke is time-pressured; either you kill the target first or the target's team murders you first). Scourge blinds (a very slight hindrance, when the target does not, for some reason, know where exits are for tumbling away to safety) and removes truehearing (barghest only hits undeaf targets). There is... Garb, and Penumbra, and Gloomtide. There is very little else in Night to stack afflictions with that help stick Choke, and ensure survival under it. If people are adamant on making the Choke change, then I propose the whole Night skill be reworked to decentralize the Choke focus.
* Moon does not have the same conditions as Night, since they have passive mana drain with an active aeon, plus passive defense stripping + afflicting
* Despite being specs of the same base skill, it seems like there are two different Visions for Night./Moon
* I am deliberately leaving out tertiaries out of the main discussion, but if you want:
- ​choose Hexes for the solofights - afflictions to help keep a target down for Choke, then more afflictions to disable said target
- choose Healing for the groupfights - auras galore for survival, but from experience even it isn't enough to keep up with large group fights
- choose Astrology ... people choose Astrology?!
Blind is synergestic with Choke beyond simply hiding exits as it prevents your opponent from fighting back until it is cured. And yes, the tertiary is there to help you stack afflictions (as well as SD fae, which are more potent offense than MD fae since you want to compare). Deliberately including only Night skills presents an incomplete picture.
Oh and Dark is unusable in 1v1 if you want power to be able to toad.
The proposed change would practically make Choke unusable for group fights. 4 seconds is a really long time for both teams to switch targets. In a situation of small offense team - big defense team, using Choke would actually be counterproductive. In a situation of balanced teams, Choke would not have any real benefits, so why risk it at all? In a situation of big offense - small defense, why bother Choking at all, when you already have numerical advantage? Choke would just be icing on top of the cake of victory.
In the first situation, sure. In the second, use of Choke would indeed have to be considered carefully. I don't know about no real benefits, you / your side may have more passive offense/hindering or defense, and presumably the Night-user would be more experienced in fighting and curing in Choke than others. And I would say that Choke would remain highly effective in the third.
Enyalida2012-01-31 08:56:03
DEERAAAIL. Don't forget that blind also stops like 80% of passive effects (if not more) that originate from the blinded person from hitting anyone. I love me my squirrels blind.
EDIT: But seriously, go argue on the Choke thread if you want to.
EDIT: But seriously, go argue on the Choke thread if you want to.
Unknown2012-01-31 08:59:51
P.S. Where were all of these comments during the actual report-making process.
You know who you are!
You know who you are!
Chade2012-01-31 09:15:48
At this point I suggest submit and be damned. You're never going to get consensus and until admin give feedback it's just going to be a vicious circle.
Unknown2012-01-31 09:18:44
I kinda feel like it's going to take a whole lot of fast-talking and luck on Shuyin's part to get much of this report through anyway. I agree with Chade.
Unknown2012-01-31 09:21:41
Oh it's been submitted for about 30 hours now.
For all intents and purposes, I'm just part of the peanut gallery and am twiddling my thumbs.
I knew I was never going to get concensus. A good compromise is one where both parties are unsatisfied and so forth.
For all intents and purposes, I'm just part of the peanut gallery and am twiddling my thumbs.
I knew I was never going to get concensus. A good compromise is one where both parties are unsatisfied and so forth.
Unknown2012-01-31 09:34:36
I just hope NIght would finally be allowed a few buffs somewhere other than Choke if the change goes through. It would suck majorly if Choke is downgraded to this, plus an impending Envoy nerf to Brumetower, but Night is still blocked from getting anything more. D:
Rika2012-01-31 10:10:16
What is so underpowered about easy sleeplock?
Unknown2012-01-31 10:20:51
The part where you're also affected by the aeon.
EDIT:
One can time pixie (1) with a pooka command to metawake off (2), with beast sleepcloud (3), with or . That's the sleeplock which both wiccan guilds can make use of.
Shadowdancers get a passive aeon with active manadrain, while Moondancers get a passive manadrain with active aeon. Shadowdancers also get affected by the effects of their passive aeon, while Moondancers do not get affected by their passive manadrain. Hence, in that respect, I could argue that both guilds are at least equally powerful.
The Shadowdancer manadrain can be stacked by multiple Shadowdancers, so that's a plus in group fights. The Moondancer passive aeon cannot - however, they could stick their passive manadrain on the Shadowdancer under the Shadowdancer's passive aeon, thus making the passive aeon actually worse for the Shadowdancer (that's a plus to Moondancers in both group and solo fights). Conversely, a Shadowdancer fae can stick disloyalty on a Moondancer, potentially turning the Moondancer's own fae against himself - but there is an ability (CharismaticAura) that defends against disloyalty. Let's not even take into account CharismaticSmile.
I would go so far as to say that Moondancers actually have more griefage potential than Shadowdancers, and as such I do not wholly comprehend the rage about Choke (which has already been nerfed at least twice).
* Room choke -> solo choke
* Solo choke -> solo choke single target
EDIT:
One can time pixie (1) with a pooka command to metawake off (2), with beast sleepcloud (3), with or . That's the sleeplock which both wiccan guilds can make use of.
Shadowdancers get a passive aeon with active manadrain, while Moondancers get a passive manadrain with active aeon. Shadowdancers also get affected by the effects of their passive aeon, while Moondancers do not get affected by their passive manadrain. Hence, in that respect, I could argue that both guilds are at least equally powerful.
The Shadowdancer manadrain can be stacked by multiple Shadowdancers, so that's a plus in group fights. The Moondancer passive aeon cannot - however, they could stick their passive manadrain on the Shadowdancer under the Shadowdancer's passive aeon, thus making the passive aeon actually worse for the Shadowdancer (that's a plus to Moondancers in both group and solo fights). Conversely, a Shadowdancer fae can stick disloyalty on a Moondancer, potentially turning the Moondancer's own fae against himself - but there is an ability (CharismaticAura) that defends against disloyalty. Let's not even take into account CharismaticSmile.
I would go so far as to say that Moondancers actually have more griefage potential than Shadowdancers, and as such I do not wholly comprehend the rage about Choke (which has already been nerfed at least twice).
* Room choke -> solo choke
* Solo choke -> solo choke single target
