You lose no power or anything if the choke doesn't hit. And its not like it will be that hard to get it to hit. If you have icewalls up they need to tumble to escape. And if you time the choke for right after they use an ability, their window of time for escape is minimal, and you might even regain eq at around the same time as them, letting you web, shieldstun, or follow with a tumble. In groups, thanks to another using p5th, shieldstun, or webbing at the same time as you start the choke - its doubtful they'll be able to escape on their own either (though slightly more warning to gust them out).

This change is by no means going to kill night or shadowdancers like you're making it out to be.

Shadowdancers get a passive aeon with active manadrain, while Moondancers get a passive manadrain with active aeon. Shadowdancers also get affected by the effects of their passive aeon, while Moondancers do not get affected by their passive manadrain. Hence, in that respect, I could argue that both guilds are at least equally powerful.


???


The Shadowdancer manadrain can be stacked by multiple Shadowdancers, so that's a plus in group fights. The Moondancer passive aeon cannot - however, they could stick their passive manadrain on the Shadowdancer under the Shadowdancer's passive aeon, thus making the passive aeon actually worse for the Shadowdancer (that's a plus to Moondancers in both group and solo fights). Conversely, a Shadowdancer fae can stick disloyalty on a Moondancer, potentially turning the Moondancer's own fae against himself - but there is an ability (CharismaticAura) that defends against disloyalty. Let's not even take into account CharismaticSmile.

I would go so far as to say that Moondancers actually have more griefage potential than Shadowdancers, and as such I do not wholly comprehend the rage about Choke (which has already been nerfed at least twice).


It's like you're ignoring the fact that there is a difference between aeon (which is curable) and choke (which gives an aeon-like effect).

Things that favour MD in choke: succumb. Full, maybe, but if you're using it in 1v1 where there's no green locks then you're probably not going to kill them.
Things that favour SD in choke: Drink, masked slaugh affs (particularly rigormortis and disloyalty) which are far stronger than crone affs in this context, redcap bleeding, scourge - option of giving blind / synergy with barghest paralysis.


Also, I feel that this newer form of Choke (if it goes through) is actually very good in 1v1 since you regain eq before choke lands and can sleeplock just before.

edit: I in no way think that MD are weak 1v1.

Turnus:

You lose no power or anything if the choke doesn't hit. And its not like it will be that hard to get it to hit. If you have icewalls up they need to tumble to escape. And if you time the choke for right after they use an ability, their window of time for escape is minimal, and you might even regain eq at around the same time as them, letting you web, shieldstun, or follow with a tumble. In groups, thanks to another using p5th, shieldstun, or webbing at the same time as you start the choke - its doubtful they'll be able to escape on their own either (though slightly more warning to gust them out).

This change is by no means going to kill night or shadowdancers like you're making it out to be.

This is for solo fights, and as I said on my first post I don't think the proposed change is going to affect solo much. I'm mainly looking at group fights, wherein both teams would have a large, 4-second window to switch targets (which they can already). The main edge of Choke was that the caster could choose when it would hit; with the proposed change, the 'when' is severely crippled.

Solanis:

It's like you're ignoring the fact that there is a difference between aeon (which is curable) and choke (which gives an aeon-like effect).

Things that favour MD in choke: succumb. Full, maybe, but if you're using it in 1v1 where there's no green locks then you're probably not going to kill them.
Things that favour SD in choke: Drink, masked slaugh affs (particularly rigormortis and disloyalty) which are far stronger than crone affs in this context, redcap bleeding, scourge - option of giving blind / synergy with barghest paralysis.

Also, I feel that this newer form of Choke (if it goes through) is actually very good in 1v1 since you regain eq before choke lands and can sleeplock just before.

Choke is also an aeon-like effect that hits both caster and target, unlike Wane and Succumb.

Succumb also directly leads to the Wiccan instakill of toadcurse. Slaugh afflictions, while potent, don't. Bleeding/paralysis synergy drains mana, yes, but succumb definitely drains more (and you're assured of at least one tic, since it's on a delayed cure - delayed even more if it's under Choke/aeon).

Read above; the concern is in group fights.

Choke is also an aeon-like effect that hits both caster and target, unlike Wane and Succumb.


You also forgot the bit about how it's uncurable.



Succumb also directly leads to the Wiccan instakill of toadcurse. Slaugh afflictions, while potent, don't. Bleeding/paralysis synergy drains mana, yes, but succumb definitely drains more (and you're assured of at least one tic, since it's on a delayed cure - delayed even more if it's under Choke/aeon).



target hindered/afflicted -> target can't hit back/move normally -> SD isn't hindered -> SD can keep attacking/following -> land more debilitating affs/drain mana -> toadcurse. Just because it's not a direct A to B doesn't mean it doesn't contribute.


Read above; the concern is in group fights.


Well... you certainly talked about things that are relevant only to solo combat, and used it to further your Choke argument.


Night Choke is the central ability of the skill; everything else practically revolves around it. There are Brumetower and Bonds to stop movement (since the 'cure' for Choke is movement). Steal increases damage of Nightkiss/gaze and Lash (to reach toad-level faster, because Choke is time-pressured; either you kill the target first or the target's team murders you first). Scourge blinds (a very slight hindrance, when the target does not, for some reason, know where exits are for tumbling away to safety) and removes truehearing (barghest only hits undeaf targets). There is... Garb, and Penumbra, and Gloomtide. There is very little else in Night to stack afflictions with that help stick Choke, and ensure survival under it. If people are adamant on making the Choke change, then I propose the whole Night skill be reworked to decentralize the Choke focus.

* Moon does not have the same conditions as Night, since they have passive mana drain with an active aeon, plus passive defense stripping + afflicting
* Despite being specs of the same base skill, it seems like there are two different Visions for Night./Moon
* I am deliberately leaving out tertiaries out of the main discussion, but if you want:

• ​choose Hexes for the solofights - afflictions to help keep a target down for Choke, then more afflictions to disable said target
  
• choose Healing for the groupfights - auras galore for survival, but from experience even it isn't enough to keep up with large group fights
  
• choose Astrology ... people choose Astrology?!
  

The part where you're also affected by the aeon.

EDIT:

One can time pixie (1) with a pooka command to metawake off (2), with beast sleepcloud (3), with or . That's the sleeplock which both wiccan guilds can make use of.

Shadowdancers get a passive aeon with active manadrain, while Moondancers get a passive manadrain with active aeon. Shadowdancers also get affected by the effects of their passive aeon, while Moondancers do not get affected by their passive manadrain. Hence, in that respect, I could argue that both guilds are at least equally powerful.

The Shadowdancer manadrain can be stacked by multiple Shadowdancers, so that's a plus in group fights. The Moondancer passive aeon cannot - however, they could stick their passive manadrain on the Shadowdancer under the Shadowdancer's passive aeon, thus making the passive aeon actually worse for the Shadowdancer (that's a plus to Moondancers in both group and solo fights). Conversely, a Shadowdancer fae can stick disloyalty on a Moondancer, potentially turning the Moondancer's own fae against himself - but there is an ability (CharismaticAura) that defends against disloyalty. Let's not even take into account CharismaticSmile.

I would go so far as to say that Moondancers actually have more griefage potential than Shadowdancers, and as such I do not wholly comprehend the rage about Choke (which has already been nerfed at least twice).

* Room choke -> solo choke
* Solo choke -> solo choke single target

Solanis:

You also forgot the bit about how it's uncurable.

Uncurable by both sides. It's a hindrance to the caster just as much as the target.

Solanis:

target hindered/afflicted -> target can't hit back/move normally -> SD isn't hindered -> SD can keep attacking/following -> land more debilitating affs/drain mana -> toadcurse. Just because it's not a direct A to B doesn't mean it doesn't contribute.

From experience, most competent fighters are able to find at least one window to hit back at the caster. Choke isn't a button that instantly ends a fight.

Solanis:

Well... you certainly talked about things that are relevant only to solo combat, and used it to further your Choke argument.

The solo-fight situations demonstrate how Choke is fine as-is, both in solo- and group fights (everyone can see the target/caster, aeon affects both target/caster, aeon is uncurable by both target/caster).

Revan:
So... if you invest in splendours (300cr) and a shield rune (450cr) you can get roughly about 120 armour stats. With Shuyin's proposed nerf, you are making the heavy investment of a trans skill and an artifact worth less than its cost, and I very much doubt that the admin will ever adjust artifact costs. It's a bad idea.

I, uh, don't really buy the credit cost argument. As it stands, that 750cr investment significantly mitigates the 3150cr investment a warrior makes for their runes... and that doesn't account for skills. If you want to talk about credit cost, the armour stat combinations (as they are now) are more unfair considering the warrior's investment then they are towards anyone else's.

Oh, the joys of Choke.

Changing age is an excellent choice. Lets you RP Being the Grumpy Old Person (if you're stuck as the grumpy-old-person, but could use an extra 150 years to seem grumpier and older), or the Carefree Young Person (If your character still is a carefree young person at heart, but is 97 or something like that). Could make it cost X essence per year or something.

The solo-fight situations demonstrate how Choke is fine as-is, both in solo- and group fights (everyone can see the target/caster, aeon affects both target/caster, aeon is uncurable by both target/caster).


In solo it's... potentially all right. Against most classes it's crazy, because they don't have the level of passives wiccans do, but there are generally ways in a solo fight to compensate (or run away) before it becomes totally impossible. In groups it is not fine as is. I still think that a more complicated but more elegant solution to any choke fix is to have whatever penalty is applied scale to the number of people in the room, because that's when it really gets insane. My suggestion was that the delay scale down in groups, but you still run into suddenly being able to bomb people, even in small groups. With the suggested delay, I'd suggest making the delay negligible in a 1v1 situation and scaling it up for every person in the room.

Enyalida:

In solo it's... potentially all right. Against most classes it's crazy, because they don't have the level of passives wiccans do, but there are generally ways in a solo fight to compensate (or run away) before it becomes totally impossible. In groups it is not fine as is. I still think that a more complicated but more elegant solution to any choke fix is to have whatever penalty is applied scale to the number of people in the room, because that's when it really gets insane. My suggestion was that the delay scale down in groups, but you still run into suddenly being able to bomb people, even in small groups. With the suggested delay, I'd suggest making the delay negligible in a 1v1 situation and scaling it up for every person in the room.

In group fights, the target's team is just as capable of hitting the caster (who is also under the aeon effect of Choke). There's even a third-party line that everyone can trigger to. It's uncurable aeon that hits both caster and target.

Yes, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's therefore equally good for both sides. Crow squall potentially hits everyone, but is a skill that has definite uses and power for the user, because they know exatly when they are going to use it and can prepare accordingly. Shamanism quicksand also hits everyone equally, and costs more power. It's still better for the Shaman then anyone else when the Shaman decides to use it because the Shaman can analyze the situation and only use it when there isn't a chance of backfiring Sorry, I think that some sort of group combat nerf to Choke is something that it deserves, and something that it's going to get. Softer nerfs that wouldn't touch 1v1 have been proposed and opposed, so this sort of thing is left...

Just so it's out there, choosing when to execute an ability gives advantage to the user, but being able to respond is part of the responsibility of the victim. If a skill cannot be responded to reasonably then it is an imbalance. If a skill has valid avenues of being responded to in reasonable situations, and is not, then it's more a problem of incompetence than an imbalance. Unfortunately, I have not much experience with choke (either as a user or victim) to contribute much to this discussion beyond this tidbit.

If you want to implement all changes and not just pick one... Too many sap changes.

If they can do decently well now, making the delay any higher will mean 50-100% harder to cure with an automatic insta. 1s is far too long of a delay for an affliction that is so problematic to cure.

Malarious:

If you want to implement all changes and not just pick one... Too many sap changes.

If they can do decently well now, making the delay any higher will mean 50-100% harder to cure with an automatic insta. 1s is far too long of a delay for an affliction that is so problematic to cure.

Agreed. If we're making sap an insta condition, we should probably keep the delay at .5 seconds.

Lerad:

Just so it's out there, choosing when to execute an ability gives advantage to the user, but being able to respond is part of the responsibility of the victim. If a skill cannot be responded to reasonably then it is an imbalance. If a skill has valid avenues of being responded to in reasonable situations, and is not, then it's more a problem of incompetence than an imbalance. Unfortunately, I have not much experience with choke (either as a user or victim) to contribute much to this discussion beyond this tidbit.

That's correct, and is why in small enough groups or 1v1 choke is far more balanced. In a large group situation choke lands and the enemy group comes down on you so hard you often die within seconds, usually far faster then the opposing group can shift targets. Even if they are all trigger to automatically switch targets over (probably a bad idea), if they aren't all on balance, you have a good 3 seconds before they can all swap targets from the group focus target to the choker, while the choker (who generally won't be the currently targeted person) can choke someone their group is already smacking, erasing the need for their own group to swap targets.

@Malarious: I agree, and don't think the delay on sap will be increased to 1 second, even if a delay addition goes through. 30 seconds is also probably a tad fast for the insta there.

Offtopic but related question for any admins reading: Are the new skillsets (Shamanism, Lorarlaria, Minstrelry) going to get their own debut reports for changes after a bit goes by?

Enyalida:


That's correct, and is why in small enough groups or 1v1 choke is far more balanced. In a large group situation choke lands and the enemy group comes down on you so hard you often die within seconds, usually far faster then the opposing group can shift targets. Even if they are all trigger to automatically switch targets over (probably a bad idea), if they aren't all on balance, you have a good 3 seconds before they can all swap targets from the group focus target to the choker, while the choker (who generally won't be the currently targeted person) can choke someone their group is already smacking, erasing the need for their own group to swap targets.

I disagree. From experience, I (Shadowdancer) am targeted first during raids on Ethereal Serenwilde. I also think that you are grossly exaggerating how Choke = death, when, again from experience, people are able to escape Choke during group fights due to 1) tumble, 2) gust by team mate, 3) mantra wind, or 4) killing the actual caster.

TBH, we also always target you because we don't like you. /shrug (Trying to be as nice about that one as possible.)

EDIT: Also, it's not possible to target all of the choke users first. There will always be one person not being targeted who can choke about (in my experience), then you go back to what I said.

See, now that's even an added bonus. If our side could prioritize according to how much we hate people, we'd target Sivas first (okay, if Munsia was there it would be different, TBH), but alas we try very hard not to let personal vendettas cloud our better judgment.

And incidentally, I am usually the Choke caster. You can easily choose to take out any potential Night users first in group fights. It's the same as when people choose to take out melders, or Spiritsingers, or Researchers, or Illuminati first during group fights to remove potential meld/eq loss/balestone/wtfaffs.

RE: Choke.

I like this analogy.

"Choke is fine because it impacts the caster too!"

Well, knight vs. knight, this is somewhat fair. The analogy is this- two knights are sitting on a platform, playing chess. One of the knights can, at their discresion during the match, press a button and submerge them both in water. They are both under water, and both have to hold their breath. The instigating knight probably is slightly better off, having gotten to choose when it was going to happen and know it was coming, but beyond the initial shock value, and probable experience in it, they're more or less on somewhat equal footing if the unsuspecting knight gets past that first bit.

Most people vs. Shadowdancer. As above. However, the instigating player gets scuba gear, and a midget that punches the other person in the gut repeatedly while they play under water. Some people bring their own midgets, though they usually aren't as synergized with being under water as well as the shadow dancer's midget. Usually, this is bad news for the second party, unless they are way better at chess than the first player, or they killed all his midgets before the game started.

However, maybe we should all go back to asking for it to be curable. That quite very nearly was a conclusion that was reached. I like the current compromise. I feel that giving it a cure would, even if not over the top, have long run consequences that are difficult to predict, and may ultimately, after envoys accounting for the cure, make the treatment worse than the disease.

The current compromise has been gone over in the other thread. If it goes through, even I will likely harshly judge people who complain about choke in groups, because it makes it more of a reward for good tactics than bringing a flame thrower to a knife fight.

My suggestion of renaming Choke was not heeded - it will be still complained about. Those people won't become the laughing stock overnight, either.

Rainydays:

RE: Choke.

I like this analogy.

"Choke is fine because it impacts the caster too!"

Well, knight vs. knight, this is somewhat fair. The analogy is this- two knights are sitting on a platform, playing chess. One of the knights can, at their discresion during the match, press a button and submerge them both in water. They are both under water, and both have to hold their breath. The instigating knight probably is slightly better off, having gotten to choose when it was going to happen and know it was coming, but beyond the initial shock value, and probable experience in it, they're more or less on somewhat equal footing if the unsuspecting knight gets past that first bit.

Most people vs. Shadowdancer. As above. However, the instigating player gets scuba gear, and a midget that punches the other person in the gut repeatedly while they play under water. Some people bring their own midgets, though they usually aren't as synergized with being under water as well as the shadow dancer's midget. Usually, this is bad news for the second party, unless they are way better at chess than the first player, or they killed all his midgets before the game started.

However, maybe we should all go back to asking for it to be curable. That quite very nearly was a conclusion that was reached. I like the current compromise. I feel that giving it a cure would, even if not over the top, have long run consequences that are difficult to predict, and may ultimately, after envoys accounting for the cure, make the treatment worse than the disease.

The current compromise has been gone over in the other thread. If it goes through, even I will likely harshly judge people who complain about choke in groups, because it makes it more of a reward for good tactics than bringing a flame thrower to a knife fight.

While I think the Knight vs Knight thing holds, the part about Shadowdancers vs most anyone does not, unless you want to include that most everyone has a way to to puncture that scuba tank and make the oxygen disappear quickly and hand the midget a $100 to make him attack the SD. It's incredibly, incredibly easy to turn choke on the caster, and it's done quite often. Any pretense saying otherwise is just plain off base. As a druid, I hope I get choked in a brumetowered room when fighting SD's. Especially now with Shamanism. As a monk, I never had issues dealing with choke, and as a warrior, I dealt with it pretty easily. I've seen plenty of people not lose their cool in choke and make the SD pay (Lekius/Nienla duel comes to mind with this).

Hell, in last years wargames, Loth/Destridas made me pay sorely for choking them (though a large part of that is on me).

I think the current compromise is just that, a compromise to make people be quiet because they can't learn how to effectively deal with choke as it is. Choke as it is, is incredibly easy to deal with IF you have eyes and can react, in group or solo situations. Now it will be even easier