Enyalida:

I think moving it down to 75/75 and making no other changes to it is quite fair (as Sahmiam suggests doing). You don't seem to be willing to reasonably discuss the problem.

@Chainyank: It was something that repeatedly kept coming up on envoys during the special report time, for various reasons. It came back when Draylor envoyed a pulling skill for Cantors, for instance, as an example of what not to do with a grabbing skill. The suggested change is probably too much, but we didn't hear anything from monk envoys on the problem. >_>

The thing is, every other forced movement skill that is targeted acts the same way in that regard. I'm not against the change if ALL single-target, forced-movement skills get the same nerf. Otherwise, no.

And Ninjakari don't have an active envoy, and this change was thrown in onto the forums last minute. So...no, it shouldn't be up for debate at this point, and as far as I'm concerned, if it's not addressed, it's a clear indication of bias from Shuyin.

Things at this point aren't up for debate at all. It's already been submitted for the first round of feedback. If it gets refused, it gets refused and arguing about it is useless. If it comes back with a thumbs up, we can hash it out before final submission.

What other movement skills work the same as chainyank (no eq/bal to try, no cooldown on trying, no special requirement, stopped only by wall (?), instant), that should get similar treatment?

EDIT: Rewritten

I suggested the change to TattooMaster and withdrew it when concern was expressed that the change to how armour functions would already demean the value of the armour. Spirit weight is how we wanted to offset the change to armour, utility.

Sahm can handle Ninukhi.

Malarious:

As usual, monks are their own best critics, and we did comment on the report he gave us, and we adjusted accordingly, he just ignored the majority of our critiques and did his own thing.

Really? Because to all of us it looked like you removed all of the major (non-single skill) nerfs form the report, without offering an alternative. The reason I, and others asked for an executive decision is because you were refusing to discuss the issue with us, instead demanding that Shuyin allow monks to regulate themselves without input from anyone else.

The monk section of the report was based on two problems 1) The limitations of momentum, and 2) the fact that high momentum monks are significantly overpowered (able to inflict heavy damage, heavy affs, hinder, and build attrition simultaneously), while being able to proceed through low momentum (meant to be a balancing factor) whiel giving up very little, thanks to grapple chains, which you even buffed to make more reliable, AND made switching targets less costly at low momentum. We non-mnks feel as though you did very little but buff your core mechanics, while offering little in exchange except for a few individual skill nerfs.

The report isn't set in stone. Come back with an equitable solution and maybe we can come to a compromise. I certanly don't want to see monks become unusable, but I also feel that the general tone from the monks here (not all, a number have been very reasonable, if less vocal) is that non-monks don't know what they are talking about, so we are going to ignore the concerns of those lesser beings.

Thank you for trying to state your view of the issue at least.

It would be stupid for anyone to allow uninformed individuals to try to institute sweeping changes to a class/guild they dislike. I will call this the (for you Akui) pyro problem. Shuyin stated he could not win, so we took his report and came back with some addendums, additions, and stated what was a concern that was problematic. Problematic meaning it was brought up and the reactions were "god no lets find another option". I went and grabbed the quote about grapples:

- Grapples were discussed for awhile but we concluded further brainstorming was needed and will revisit it, some people had to leave. Discussion included things along the lines of... *gain mo only if a kick is used (this means no speed mod on early forms). *capping what momentum they can get you to. We have not finished on this, we are looking toward standardizing grapples but attempting to fix concerns. The main one we heard was lock, most grapples do not actually do much and you can still attack under them.

Lock is a problem skill, oddly enough he also left it out of the report when we said it should be changed. The main problem for momentum monks is low momentum combat, which is currently 90% grapple because its the useful thing you can do at ka levels too low to really have any usefulness. If used the change will currently cripple several strategies and I have great pity for the Ninjakari.

Grapples by the way give up ALOT, they dont do damage/wounds/poisons (except specific ones like ninshi). All you do is give them time to cure while setting up for an ender really. People wanted a report of nerfs basically, you can say it, you didnt want balance it was a firing squad, not a commitee. Changes along the lines of skills are better done through envoys but Shuyin asked for nerfs to quell the masses and so they came to be. We tried to work with him and he spat in our faces.

The report is pretty set in stone, we will likely envoy around him at this point. This report will likely take awhile and it is too detrimental to wait on, we will likely pre-envoy fixes for it. Ironically we have to envoy to damage control the report. I thought you knew about Monkish.

Also it is Shuyin's job to properly manage fixes, if his suggestion will cripple something it should be his task to find a proper replacement. We discussed but there was not alot of time from when this sudden suggestion came up.

Enyalida:

What other movement skills work the same as chainyank (no eq/bal to try, no cooldown on trying, no special requirement, stopped only by wall (?), instant), that should get similar treatment?

Blocking also stops dragging, as well as sitting, but that's beside the point along with the bold stuff above. I'll address the why soon.

I'm at work and can't be doing the research at the moment, so I'll ask these questions: What are all the single-target, forced-movement, adjacent-room skills? Which ones consume eq/bal when the target is not in an adjacent room? Which ones don't?

The only ones I can think of are beckon (which is totally different), wisp, illuminati wisp++, Whirlpool, Barge (sort of?), and Rad (sort of).

Beckon seems to work by giving everyone in adjacent rooms the command (a la dominate) to move into the room, and is therefore blocked by anything that would stop you normally moving. Both of the wisp skills don't take eq to try, but aren't instant and are stopped by distort. Whirlpool is nutty: passive sucking people from adjacent deluged/water rooms into the room of the caster, stopped only by walls, nothing else. Barge can't barge you back into your own room, I think. It also has the sideeffect of leaving you offbal in the target's room if it fails. Rad is stopped by distort, and moves the target into a random room, not necessarily into the room of the target.

Chainyank is the only one that has no eq penalty, moves the target 100% into the user's room (When it fires), has no chance of backlash, and doesn't have a delay.

Actually beckon is the closest comparison, beckon has a targetted option. (STAR|DARK)CALL BECKON

You can spam the targetted version the exact same as chaindrag. Beckon has the bonus you can target room if you want to ignore shields. But if the problem is what it looks like (spamming it before a target arrives), then you have to do the same to beckon, ambush tackle, etc?

Enyalida:

The only ones I can think of are beckon (which is totally different), wisp, illuminati wisp++, Whirlpool, Barge (sort of?), and Rad (sort of).

Beckon seems to work by giving everyone in adjacent rooms the command (a la dominate) to move into the room, and is therefore blocked by anything that would stop you normally moving. Both of the wisp skills don't take eq to try, but aren't instant and are stopped by distort. Whirlpool is nutty: passive sucking people from adjacent deluged/water rooms into the room of the caster, stopped only by walls, nothing else. Barge can't barge you back into your own room, I think. It also has the sideeffect of leaving you offbal in the target's room if it fails. Rad is stopped by distort, and moves the target into a random room, not necessarily into the room of the target.

Chainyank is the only one that has no eq penalty, moves the target 100% into the user's room (When it fires), has no chance of backlash, and doesn't have a delay.

Targetted beckon. You can spam it without eq/bal penalties, and in that regard, it should be nerfed with ninukhi.
Wisp likewise.
Rad likewise.
Whirlpool isn't single target, so it doesn't pertain to the topic.
Room beckon is off topic for the same reason.

The problem seems to be that it's spammable hoping to catch a target the moment they enter the room. EVERY single-target, forced movement skill works like that, and thus the problem is not unique to ninukhi.

And if we're looking at this particular problem, it actually extends to other skills. Point staff, rush, tackle, jumpkick. There's no reasonable justification for isolating ninukhi for this particular nerf, and really the only isolation I'm providing is to define this class of skill as "single-target, forced movement." The nerf actually creates a slipperly slope for all skills that work on adjacent targets, regardless of what they do.

If you want to bring up when one skill works and another doesn't, it's actually another topic. From a logical standpoint, facts such as wisp having a delay or rad being random aren't related to the problem of ninukhi being spammable.

Here's why:

Skill with property set p and restriction set r. s: p; r

Rad: spammable; random, stopped by distort, etc.
Ninukhi: spammable; stopped by shields, walls, blocking, longer off-bal time on success etc.
Target beckon: spammable; stopped by shields, blocking, etc.

Spamability is a property of all single-target, forced-movement skills, not one of the things restricted or not restricted. If it's a problem for one, it's a problem for all.

Whirlpool isn't single target, so it doesn't pertain to the topic.

:thumbsup:

Targetted beckon. You can spam it without eq/bal penalties, and in that regard, it should be nerfed with ninukhi.
Wisp likewise.
Rad likewise.
Whirlpool isn't single target, so it doesn't pertain to the topic.
Room beckon is off topic for the same reason.

The problem seems to be that it's spammable hoping to catch a target the moment they enter the room. EVERY single-target, forced movement skill works like that, and thus the problem is not unique to ninukhi.

And if we're looking at this particular problem, it actually extends to other skills. Point staff, rush, tackle, jumpkick. There's no reasonable justification for isolating ninukhi for this particular nerf, and really the only isolation I'm providing is to define this class of skill as "single-target, forced movement." The nerf actually creates a slipperly slope for all skills that work on adjacent targets, regardless of what they do.

If you want to bring up when one skill works and another doesn't, it's actually another topic. From a logical standpoint, facts such as wisp having a delay or rad being random aren't related to the problem of ninukhi being spammable.

Here's why:

Skill with property set p and restriction set r. s: p; r

Rad: spammable; random, stopped by distort, etc.
Ninukhi: spammable; stopped by shields, walls, blocking, longer off-bal time on success etc.
Target beckon: spammable; stopped by shields, blocking, etc.

Spamability is a property of all single-target, forced-movement skills, not one of the things restricted or not restricted. If it's a problem for one, it's a problem for all.


No... The spammabilitiy of some of these skills is countered by them being more restricted or blocked then chaindrag. Again, wisp has a delay so you can spam it all you want, but you don't get a nice instant pull right as they walk into the adjacent room. It's not a problem for wisp.

On rad: Rad both is blocked by distort, and does not move the target into the caster's room dependably.

Single target beckon: I was not aware that this existed, it's not on the wiki. Yeah, remove spamming on that.

So no. Wisp and Rad should both remain as is (with regards to balance penalties). Chainyank (and single target beckon) should have some penalty to holding down the enter button on your alias.

Enyalida:


No... The spammabilitiy of some of these skills is countered by them being more restricted or blocked then chaindrag. Again, wisp has a delay so you can spam it all you want, but you don't get a nice instant pull right as they walk into the adjacent room. It's not a problem for wisp.

On rad: Rad both is blocked by distort, and does not move the target into the caster's room dependably.

Single target beckon: I was not aware that this existed, it's not on the wiki. Yeah, remove spamming on that.

So no. Wisp and Rad should both remain as is (with regards to balance penalties). Chainyank (and single target beckon) should have some penalty to holding down the enter button on your alias.

I disagree. Skill s is spammed until it activates on target t. (Beginning a wisp is activating it.) If you look to the restrictions as a counter to the spammability, it's an ad hoc move.

What counters POINT STAFF's spammability? I would reply to that <---- by saying that I'm asking the wrong question, but to be consistent with myself, I also have to say the same thing about Rad and Wisp. The spammability is a property of all single-target skills. ALL of them, not just ones that are done to targets in other rooms or forced movement skills. To say that spammability is countered by something is to imply that 1) spammability is a problem and 2) that is must be countered by something.

The idea is to have an ad hoc solution to the problem. The actual problem with chainyank (and targeted beckon) being spammable is that it leaves no window of opportunity for someone to make use of the various things that can block it, as it can trigger as soon as the target enters an adjacent room, before they have the chance to go prone, shield, or erect a wall.

The source of the issue is being able to spam it, but the issue itself is that the spamming of it leaves no (reasonable) defense against it. With the wisp-type skills, there is a reasonable defense against it, you have a window of time during which you may move away or drop a monolith (?), to avoid being moved. The intiation of it may be spammed, but it dosn't end up with the same end problem that you see with chainyank and beckon.

Similarly, point staff may be spammed, but having a single attack at range for health damage on a target isn't as devastating as being pulled into an enemy group, no matter how you slice it. Yes, spammability is annoying, but no, it doesn't have the same problem as chainyank/beckon.

There is a reasonable defense against it. Move and sit. Move and wall. Move and block. All it takes is a stacked command OR an alias that's set up to do that, and you'll find that this solution is much the same for all the other skills.

Unless a person is stacking the drag command, the chances of them dragging someone that stacked the move with the defense is -very- slim. The client sends the two commands < microsecond apart where as a person hitting enter over and over is maybe doing it a few times a second. Excluding lag, of course, but I'd rather not balance around that.

And even so: I do NOT support the solution of making any skill unspammable. I think that's worse than all of the other restrictions out there.

I can slice a point staff very nicely. Random clan: staff tar dir. 10 staffs at once. It's how the zap kills happened.

Not going to argue over numbers, but if given the choice I'd take tattoomaster over splendours just because I wouldn't need to worry about the RNG.

Yes, but as much as one person can stack commands (though they have to know that there is someone in a room adjacent to the one they are planning to move to who is planning on using chainyank, which is part of the reason I don't find this defense 'reasonable'), the chainyanker can stack commands just as much, or even just code a constant flood of chainyank, gagged on their end. I'd rather not balance around having to execute commands within miliseconds of eachother, to be honest and I have had that strategy fail me before.

All of that said, do you have a different solution that solves the problem? A delay before movement was suggested, but I don't like that, personally. Too many problems generated. The issue is that you can hold down the enter key to auto-move someone before they have any reasonable window of time to defend themselves against it, in the course of normal group battles. Making it so that you can't write a supershort timer or just tie a small rock to your enter key to automatically do what amounts to killing someone in group combat is a good change. The easiest way to do that would be to penalize you for repeated use. I don't particularly like slapping a high endurance cost on it either, though. I know how much that sucks, I've got some dreamweaver things that take upwards of 3k willpower when they fail to go off.

foolofsound:


Bards have virtually no DMP. Should we introduce a trade skill to give them massively superior defenses as well?

Brewmeister? Double that DMP if they are a dwarf bard as well.

Janalon:

Brewmeister? Double that DMP if they are a dwarf bard as well.

To get beyond the base DMP from sipping amber/darkbeers that's available to everyone, you have to get drunk enough that you're operating under a permanent mini-stupidity/badluck effect. It's not worth it.

I think fumbling is less of an issue than you make it out to be, even before all the buffs and ways to negate it people used dwarf to proper effect. Fumbles dont do anything curing can continue and attacks reused without fail.

And personally if you tumble into a room you will be off bal when chaindrag trires to fire, assuming you are even worried about it. There are alot of ways to avoid things, being off eq/bal will not only cause it to fail but still consume the balance for instance.

Either spamming a skill against a target who is not there is flawed or it is not, picking and choosing specifics on the condition of "limits" does not make a fair argument. Either several skills need to be treated the same or it is a problem of bias. While other skills have the same "problem" they should have a similar "solution".

Malarious:

I think fumbling is less of an issue than you make it out to be, even before all the buffs and ways to negate it people used dwarf to proper effect. Fumbles dont do anything curing can continue and attacks reused without fail.

Say that to all the people/classes that are based around command rejection and slow curing. Gogo aeon/sap/choke/badluck(another chance to fire)/Jinx(?)/Herbbane!

(Does anyone use jinx? The only class I figure has a chance with it is Illums, and it has to be absolutely LULZY with them. It feels like Jinx was actually designed for illums.)

Malarious:

And personally if you tumble into a room you will be off bal when chaindrag trires to fire, assuming you are even worried about it. There are alot of ways to avoid things, being off eq/bal will not only cause it to fail but still consume the balance for instance.

Yes, and if you are tumbling into the room, you aren't doing group combat, and chainyank is nobigdeal.

Malarious:

Either spamming a skill against a target who is not there is flawed or it is not, picking and choosing specifics on the condition of "limits" does not make a fair argument. Either several skills need to be treated the same or it is a problem of bias. While other skills have the same "problem" they should have a similar "solution".

I agree. Single target beckon is the only skill that has the same effect as chainyank, though how it gets there is a bit different. Therefore, single target beckon should be given the same treatment. Just as group beckon has an eq loss when attempted, single target should, as should chainyank.