Cairnlargo is nothing like what you are suggesting here. If I could build spirits on someone every time I did minorsecond or minorsixth, then you could make a comparision.

Yes, but you've forgotten that they will need to blanknote every 2 or so Cairnlargos, assuming that they aren't being hindered at all. And yeah, they can't be doing anything else while doing this!

EDIT: And yeah. If you can do an order via pooka, then slap down a three second stun, then do your action (presumably timing this with fae) like flinging hexes, you're going to probably get a second round of action before they do anything. With a blackout, if the intent is to hide your afflictions, it only really needs to be 1 second, honestly. The blackout isn't a big deal though. The stun kind of is.

I said that was the closest equivalent, of course it wouldn't be 100% similar.

What if the stun were reduced to a lower number, would 2s be fine?

That's enough to order metawake off, stun, aff, aff, fling double sleep for hexen, the most offensive tert, it's to prevent instantly trying to wake.

Remember that if they mess this up, they do have to do it all over again with the set up.

I'd really like more feedback in the form of counter ideas as well, not just shooting things down, as fun as that may be.

If we're going by the aff list you mentioned, I don't think addiction is a problem. Will the afflictions be hidden or not? If it isn't hidden, even less of a problem.

They will not be hidden unless they expend points to hide it under blackout.

"In fact, in my opinion, the nearest equivalent to this is bardquisition by SS, which involves spirit build up, then unleash, a similar mechanic. And that lasts way more than 3 seconds."

"By the way, freeze takes 5 actions, then the unleash, but no power. At least that's what Xiel's site tells me."

By bringing this up, you are attempting to justify the powerful effects of this suggestion by comparing it to another skill that has a similar, but completely different in practice, mechanic. If you had just said hey, cairnlargo is similar to this, then it wouldn't have mattered. The fact that you are now putting numbers into it means you are analysing the skill in comparision to this suggestion.

Note, I'm not shooting down your idea. I think it has merit and other than some of your numbers seeming to be a tad too much, I think it is fine. I am not fine with any attempts to justify these numbers by bringing in other numbers from an existing skill that cannot possibly be compared.

Yeah, I don't see how that's any worse than a tk hiding clots under tk-choke. Most people will just assume addiction and eat galingale anyway.

I just hope the blackout isn't too long...Just enough to hide a thing or two. Remember that a hexen still has access to vapors.

rika:

"In fact, in my opinion, the nearest equivalent to this is bardquisition by SS, which involves spirit build up, then unleash, a similar mechanic. And that lasts way more than 3 seconds."

"By the way, freeze takes 5 actions, then the unleash, but no power. At least that's what Xiel's site tells me."

By bringing this up, you are attempting to justify the powerful effects of this suggestion by comparing it to another skill that has a similar, but completely different in practice, mechanic. If you had just said hey, cairnlargo is similar to this, then it wouldn't have mattered. The fact that you are now putting numbers into it means you are analysing the skill in comparision to this suggestion.

Note, I'm not shooting down your idea. I think it has merit and other than some of your numbers seeming to be a tad too much, I think it is fine. I am not fine with any attempts to justify these numbers by bringing in other numbers from an existing skill that cannot possibly be compared.

The reason why I brought up bardquisition is because it's more similar to this idea than psionic combos, which I feel is true.

When Enyalida brought up the number of actions and power cost for the skill, I looked into it and posted that it's actually not as costly as her posts made them to be, which is definitely true.

In fact, the only reason I even brought up any of them to begin with was to give readers a familiar comparison from which they can base their opinions on. Arguing about psionics or largo itself seems like a tangent.

That's all there is to it!

I will cover substitutes after this.

Mana drain - let's say 250-300, I want this to help land the toad once the enemy is locked up and the SD can start drain/lash spamming to get the toad. I want it to help, but not be too much. At 7100 mana lash takes 1000, that would mean 1250 every 3-4s. In groups this would be disgustingly fast. I am unsure if this is a problem, will think about it.

Fracturedskull - I picked this to help put some cure denial in that stacks with stupidity. Not dead set on this. Not a fan of this one, you will not have aeon, you can use jinx for stupidity. Especially if we have mental affs from shadows, yay insta jinx?

Addiction - Used to double sip balance to help get them behind in mana. I'm not sure what you mean by a Glom aff, any aff can be a Glom aff IMO.
Too powerful with pooka. lash lash. Wait. Addiction force sip drain lash drain lash drain lash. You put people very very far behind too quickly.

Bleed - Used to put pressure on the enemy once they're locked up a bit by forcing them to clot and use up mana. Let's say 500 since it's worth 2 points. This I guess is fine, its alot of bleeding but I suppose the amount can be tweaked if its too much.

Throatlock - Used to help stack on focus pressure along with leglock and paralysis from barghest (?). Also to help stop sip mana. Actually I am withdrawing concern on this one, but keep in mind I think this can too easily shut down curing in a guild with impatience.

Blackout - Used to slide in affs to help delay the opponent curing it, so it needs to be long enough to allow a fully burst of 2 manipulation affs and a Night user action, so let's say 3 seconds. Vapors can hide affs and is like 1s long. If you are sending them as a burst you only need 1s really. Lets call this 1.5s or 2s.

Stun - Same as above, but this will probably used more to keep the opponent asleep by making them unable to enter the wake command immediately. So let's also say 3 seconds. Definitely too high of a stun, passive shieldstun (yes it needs prep) seems too extreme.

Lets do some affliction changes:
- Fractured skull > Pacified or stupidity
- Addiction > Change to 3 shadows.
- Blackout > 1.5-2s, give it a range.
- Leglock > Can also replace with hemiplegy lower (lowerparalysis).
- Stun > 2s, or 3s and consume 1s of eq.

The ability to use up to 5 skills at a time is nuts by the way. Set up a little then walk in and outright gank. Like I said, the best way to fix it is try to break it.

You can't gank with it. You need to build charges on the enemy first then unleash.

So assuming a gank, the Night user will have to steal, spam a night attack 5 times, then start the combo. I'm sure the victim can react by then.

-I'm fine with stupidity switching, but I don't think it's a big issue to change it to begin with.

-How exactly are you expected to stick addiction if you can't hide it under blackout? I'd say moving it to 2 shadows (at the most) will leave it viable while at the same time reducing the aff output by the SD. One of the best scenarios under this could be: pooka sip bromides, beast attack, blackout, addiction, dwhammy anorexia/impatience. Frankly, I'm not sure it's possible to catch people on potion balance midcombat, you're gonna need to do it near the beginning of the fight or as an opener.

-2s blackout is fine

-I think leglock would be better to help reduce mana a bit more and stack focus body affs.

-2s stun is fine too

Oh hm, yeah. I see where Malarious is coming from with fractured skull, especially at 1 shadow. Blackout and fracturedskull is a problematic combo because you can't really tell the difference from stupidity until you've diagnosed. I see that becoming a go-to combo especially in groups...

When I say gank I mean solo, because you can prep and leave so they get balances then walk in and get started after.

You could conceivably hide 2 mental affs and force the sip under blackout, then have beast hit, and insta jinx. All at once!

But I am not in a combo-ey mood, so someone else can try to break it now. And I know the intent is stacked focusing, but thats exactly my concern by just using leglock + throatlock + hex paralysis you can potentially kill curing for some time, because of the nature you can use more than one at a time this is problematic.

Sojiro:


When Enyalida brought up the number of actions and power cost for the skill, I looked into it and posted that it's actually not as costly as her posts made them to be, which is definitely true.

I immediatly (within 30 seconds of posting) went back and edited out the part about power ;). The balances statement was in fact close to truth, a good estimation of how many balances it takes to use cairnlargo freeze on someone.

Yes, the only problem with addiction comes in the fact that the SD can use pooka to instantly force you into sipping with it up. You don't have to stick it, I'm not sure where annnny of that is coming from.

EDIT: Sure, you have to catch them on PotBal (I think, might want to check exactly how addiction works) but that's not that terribly hard.

Rivius:

Oh hm, yeah. I see where Malarious is coming from with fractured skull, especially at 1 shadow. Blackout and fracturedskull is a problematic combo because you can't really tell the difference from stupidity until you've diagnosed. I see that becoming a go-to combo especially in groups...

Actually, I'd argue that knowing the affliction list, you can simply assume addiction/fracskull under this blackout.

For groups, this is less effective than simply ganking. You're gonna need to build at least 4 charges along with stealing a shadow before you can even do it.

Malarious:

When I say gank I mean solo, because you can prep and leave so they get balances then walk in and get started after.

You could conceivably hide 2 mental affs and force the sip under blackout, then have beast hit, and insta jinx. All at once!

But I am not in a combo-ey mood, so someone else can try to break it now. And I know the intent is stacked focusing, but thats exactly my concern by just using leglock + throatlock + hex paralysis you can potentially kill curing for some time, because of the nature you can use more than one at a time this is problematic.

I agree, you can prep then leave, then walk in and get started so they're on balance.

Which is why I proposed raising the cost to 2 shadows if needed, then insta jinxing would not be as effective. And even then, now what?

Enyalida:

Yes, the only problem with addiction comes in the fact that the SD can use pooka to instantly force you into sipping with it up. You don't have to stick it, I'm not sure where annnny of that is coming from.

EDIT: Sure, you have to catch them on PotBal (I think, might want to check exactly how addiction works) but that's not that terribly hard.

Okay, so you're off potbal for 8s.

I feel like there's no way you're going to be instantly toaded within this 8s especially since you can still sparkle/scroll/beast.

You can still fight back, you can still shield, or you can even start trying to run away if you're super worried.

Basically, charges are very limited resource. The Night user gets 1-2 shots before he has to start all over again, so they kind of have to be fairly powerful given this window of time.

You're not too hindered from curing or acting, there's no point to sticking it, as you've said, so you need to capitalize on these 8s, what can you do? You can't just repeatedly drain/lash if the enemy isn't hindered enough, so I'm not sure you're gonna get toaded without a sleeplock to start with.

Ya know, I think some guy--let's call him Copernicus--had the same kinds of issues when he tried to present great ideas to a body of people--let's call it the church.

Shuyinicus and his disciples are trying to find an alternative to choke that works. The point isn't to find a skill that can be easily molested and ignored by other combatants. We're trying to find something that will help Shadowdancers kill again when choke disappears. I do not understand why people are quibbling over a few seconds more of mana drain (when other classes can wipe out mana so much faster than we can (hello, Moondancers)).

The thing that made Shadowdancers scary is going away. Examine the skills we have left, look at the skills you have, and do not forget how simple it is to walk away from us in our current gimped incarnation.

When you veto ideas, please also try to remember that without something to rival choke in effectiveness (with perhaps a slightly less-than-excitable aeon-like function to prevent people from having another 4 year coronary), the Shadowdancers are just a group of people who can roleplay reasonably well.



Arguments like:

"That idea will buff the Harbingers, no thanks, bleeding is terriblebad omg"

and

"You are going to be able to kill people who don't fight well against bleeding way too well with that, pick something else"

and

"Yes, I know that this other X class is OP, but we aren't worrying about them right now! We must stop the travesty before it happens again!"


are not really helpful for the point of the thread. Are the nerfs you're all asking for really nerfable when we consider the archetypes that will be stacked against whatever the Shadowdancers are landed with? There is no way you can, with impunity, downsize the offensive prowess of an entire class so that it is perfectly nestled inside the "can just compete adequately with most archetypes" category.


Those of you who are pointing the finger of OP(pression) at these ideas because of how they might work with Hexes have never had to deal with the torment of redrawing, balancing an aura, and the powersuck that is doublewhammy. Healing, alongside some of these ideas, is much scarier than hexes will be, but again-- you can walk away freely now, unless the fighting shadowdancer is also tricked out with a sleep beast, a sleeping enchantment, three friends to hex, and 8 maids a'milking.


And stop rolling your eyes because we Night users are hesitant to comment, please. We'd make more suggestions, but we thought choke was fine. It's hard to contribute when you didn't ask for the change.

Long rant right on out of the blue, when those aren't even real arguments being used against the current idea. If you thought choke was fine for groups, you weren't looking things with an objective of balanced eye. Needing to use something doesn't make it good or bad, requiring something in single combat doesn't make it balanced for group combat.

That's really all there is to say about most of that. I do kind of laugh at things like 'torture of drawing hexes', when I've seen people draw and fling a hex at about the same speed of my single eq cost abilities. Same with doublewhammy. Look at runist's doublesling. Sure you can hit adjacent rooms, but with two totally unmasked affs, for 1 less power!

EDIT: In short, getting a skill removed doesn't really give you license to be totally free of scrutiny in your subsequent ideas. If you have an argument for or against something (like addiction) that doesn't boil down to "But we're getting nerfed." or "Other people have x,y,x skill", go for it. I don't think addiction is a HUGE problem, but you can't just overlook potential problems with it.

I liked old choke too, easier to balance. I practiced in it a bit more and it was alot more managable.

That said, a replacement should not be worse. That is why I say try to break it, let us look at what can happen, lets assume you get 5 charges then leave and come back..... Remember a hex is 1s or less.

1) Pooka metawake off + sleepcloud + doublewhammy sleep sleep
2) Throatlock + impatience
3) Leglock + Paralysis
4) Lash
5) When target wakes up use shadow sleep for eq-less resleep.
6) Hypnogaze + stupidity
7) Can jinx and just repeat lash till death.

In the event they wake up its up to 3s of focusing to try to be able to eat or sip anything. Hexenpalm really really makes this easier too, since you can maintain several impatience for instance.

Ok grabbin food. Will worry if I have looked at all this properly later.

Fair point about brokenskull. As long as these things aren't horribly spammable somehow it's probably not that big a deal.

I don't think forced sip + addiction is really that much to be worried about. It's strong, but it's not gonna get a kill by itself. Throatlock + Impatience seems much more of a threat to me. Not saying it's OP, just pointing that out.

(Just skimming for now. I'll make a more substantial reply later.)

Enyalida, learn to shield better. Nullify takes a stark century, and by then, the opponent will have figured out something even better. Hexes is not that scary unless sleeplock is involved.

Even then, without something to keep you in the room--and especially in group combat--sleeplock isn't going to hold most people down. That is a defunct argument.