Xiel2012-02-17 06:28:24
<3 Asmomo.
Also, just to contribute to the idea, how about adding in a minute bit of endurance loss to the manipulated sleep too. Would help with keeping the sleep if that's how the toadkill is being approached.
Also, just to contribute to the idea, how about adding in a minute bit of endurance loss to the manipulated sleep too. Would help with keeping the sleep if that's how the toadkill is being approached.
Asmodea2012-02-17 06:33:05
Sleep hexes already drain your endurance
Xiel2012-02-17 06:35:38
Neato precedent for the manipulated sleep to do it too. :D
Lehki2012-02-17 06:38:04
What those two said, enough worrying about choke replacement. Should go put that energy into the poor Druid feedback thread which doesn't even have a second page yet. D:
Unknown2012-02-17 06:38:31
Oh god it would be a bit soul crushing to put up this idea, argue and adjust for it post after post just to receive a 'Nope, too complicated/lame/whatever. Next.'
I'll try to see if I can receive some admin feedback tomorrow or something.
Edit: Ah man, I have ideas for druids too, but I feel like I know less about that (though still way more than say, monk mechanics) compared to choke.
I'll try to see if I can receive some admin feedback tomorrow or something.
Edit: Ah man, I have ideas for druids too, but I feel like I know less about that (though still way more than say, monk mechanics) compared to choke.
Shedrin2012-02-17 10:27:29
The more I think about the idea, the more I like it. Sure it could have some strong synergy with Hexes, but that's really to be expected if it's going to be effective. The idea is plenty versatile, with the ability to change numbers and effects around easily to tweak the balance.
In a group, the idea shouldn't be too overwhelming. Sleeplocks don't tend to work in groups, eh. Probably the most danger is the increased manabombing capability, but numbers can be tweaked to make sure it's not too powerful.
1v1, I like the thought of how throatlock + sleep will work. Usually in order to keep someone asleep you'll need aeon for the delay before they can insomnia/kafe. With throatlock, though they can still use insomnia, it'll take half a second (potentially more with Impatience) before they can eat kafe, thus allowing a window where the lock can be perpetuated.
One of the more powerful combos I can think of:
Pooka metawake off + manipulate sleep 3x + throatlock + beast spit senso + doublewhammy impatience + asthma
Follow up with paralysis (probably from Barghest).
So that's fully asleep (no metawake or kafe), throatlock, impatience, asthma and slickness (if not shrugged). When they wake up they'll have to focus mind off the impatience first, as the asthma and slickness prevent smoking the impatience. If paralysis or leglock can be applied after the initial burst as well, it'll prevent running or shielding after the target wakes up. Though it'll take another doublesleep to get passed the insomnia, with an approximate window of 2s.
Changing throatlock to 3 charges would prevent the combo unless timed with Pixie. Else, one hex would have to be used for Sleep. Then the next balance would need to be a hex action to complete the lock.
However, though I haven't calculated it out, this lock doesn't seem to give a whole lot of time for active mana draining, and without Succumb, the passive drain will be fairly minor.
If this goes through, I'll be interested in seeing how SDs optimize their combat to get kills.
Edit: I can also envision some neat tricks with Astrology as well.
In a group, the idea shouldn't be too overwhelming. Sleeplocks don't tend to work in groups, eh. Probably the most danger is the increased manabombing capability, but numbers can be tweaked to make sure it's not too powerful.
1v1, I like the thought of how throatlock + sleep will work. Usually in order to keep someone asleep you'll need aeon for the delay before they can insomnia/kafe. With throatlock, though they can still use insomnia, it'll take half a second (potentially more with Impatience) before they can eat kafe, thus allowing a window where the lock can be perpetuated.
One of the more powerful combos I can think of:
Pooka metawake off + manipulate sleep 3x + throatlock + beast spit senso + doublewhammy impatience + asthma
Follow up with paralysis (probably from Barghest).
So that's fully asleep (no metawake or kafe), throatlock, impatience, asthma and slickness (if not shrugged). When they wake up they'll have to focus mind off the impatience first, as the asthma and slickness prevent smoking the impatience. If paralysis or leglock can be applied after the initial burst as well, it'll prevent running or shielding after the target wakes up. Though it'll take another doublesleep to get passed the insomnia, with an approximate window of 2s.
Changing throatlock to 3 charges would prevent the combo unless timed with Pixie. Else, one hex would have to be used for Sleep. Then the next balance would need to be a hex action to complete the lock.
However, though I haven't calculated it out, this lock doesn't seem to give a whole lot of time for active mana draining, and without Succumb, the passive drain will be fairly minor.
If this goes through, I'll be interested in seeing how SDs optimize their combat to get kills.
Edit: I can also envision some neat tricks with Astrology as well.
Unknown2012-02-17 10:49:59
And there are some Healing tricks that are underused because of the difficulty of sticking sleep with it...maybe that will change with this! :D
Asmodea2012-02-17 11:41:56
hmm, how many manipulations are we talking that we can pull off at once?
Unknown2012-02-17 14:18:06
I think any number, as long as the manipulations total to how many shadowcharges you have, maximum of 5.
Unknown2012-02-17 15:01:21
Reposting this because I'm tired of clicking back four pages to read it
I still feel that we should add a 10% (1-handed) or 20% (2-handed) chance per warrior attack to generate an umbra as long as Nightaura is up. Remember that Warriors are already going to be locked out of 2+ umbral affs, and EG don't have any ability to turn off Metawake. This means that, at worst, EG would be able to smack an avearge of every 5 attacks with FracturedSkull or Addiction. I just feel that we should endevour to at least give the skill some use for EG, since they are losing Choke as well.
Besides, this would open up the doors for some of the other warrior guilds to get useful new tert abilities.
Shadow Manipulation (Version 2).
The basic theme is manipulating your victim's shadow in order to induce debilitating effects on him.
The skill works as follows:
Note: Asterisks (*) mean that the actual number may be subject to change.
-First, it requires that the victim's shadow be stolen (Night Steal). A Night user can only steal/possess one shadow at any given time.
-Next, umbral energy must be gathered from the victim (henceforth known as "umbras"*) in order to empower the shadow enough to harm the victim.
-A shadow can only hold up to 5* umbras at any given time.
-Umbras are gathered through the use of various Night-related abilities, which are:
*Lash, Scourge, Nightkiss, Nightgaze
Note: Umbras can only be gathered from a victim if you possess his or her shadow.
-Once a victim's shadow has been stolen, you can induce a variety of effects on the victim, as long as you pay the corresponding number of umbras to do so. Syntax: SHADOWDANCE MANIPULATE (target) (effect)
-Here is a preliminary list of effects, sorted by cost:
1 umbra:
*Sleep, Mana drain, Fractured skull, Addiction
2 umbras:
*Bleed, Throatlock, Leglock
3 umbras:
*Blackout, Stun
Note: Any manipulation that costs more than 1 umbra requires a wiccan athame to be wielded.
-The manipulation command requires both balance and equilibrium, but consumes neither when used. The only cost lies with the umbras.
-Harming the victim with this will use up the the corresponding amount of umbras, which means that it will need to be gathered once more.
Changes to Skills:
-The following attacks will generate 1 umbra per use: Nightkiss, Nightgaze, Scourge, Lash
-Stolen shadows will need to have a standardized decay of 10* minutes.
-Night users may only steal/possess one shadow of a person at a time.
I still feel that we should add a 10% (1-handed) or 20% (2-handed) chance per warrior attack to generate an umbra as long as Nightaura is up. Remember that Warriors are already going to be locked out of 2+ umbral affs, and EG don't have any ability to turn off Metawake. This means that, at worst, EG would be able to smack an avearge of every 5 attacks with FracturedSkull or Addiction. I just feel that we should endevour to at least give the skill some use for EG, since they are losing Choke as well.
Besides, this would open up the doors for some of the other warrior guilds to get useful new tert abilities.
Malarious2012-02-17 17:02:08
No we do not need a spam-mechanic.
Costless generation of a resource just means they can also spam every attack.
Assume afflictions will be replaced, your repost took into account no prior posts.
This is not made to "fix" EG, as has been said they do not need love in this, though they can use some of it.
Warriors already get useful Tertiaries, where have you been?
Costless generation of a resource just means they can also spam every attack.
Assume afflictions will be replaced, your repost took into account no prior posts.
This is not made to "fix" EG, as has been said they do not need love in this, though they can use some of it.
Warriors already get useful Tertiaries, where have you been?
Unknown2012-02-17 17:47:06
Malarious:
No we do not need a spam-mechanic.
I don't understand why you call this a spam mechanic. The ability to hit with an extra aff every 5ish rounds is hardly spam.
Costless generation of a resource just means they can also spam every attack.
Occassional costless generation, in much the same way that ChaosAura generates insanity essentially costlessly.
Assume afflictions will be replaced, your repost took into account no prior posts.
There has been no confirmation of what will be replaced or changed, and with what.
This is not made to "fix" EG, as has been said they do not need love in this, though they can use some of it.
I have been told that Choke did benefit EG, albeit not as much as SDs. I don't see why they shouldn't get some benefit form the replacement.
Warriors already get useful Tertiaries, where have you been?
Of course they do, but this opens the door to more differentiated mechanics: damage type shifts, alternate kill conditions, ect, between the warrior guilds, since their primaries are not. I'm not saying that warrior terts are in any way useless, I'm saying that they could better support them as a whole by adding more effects that do not interfere with warrior offense, in much the same way that Acrobatics and Psymet do not generally interfere with Monk offense.
Malarious2012-02-17 20:04:08
Spam mechanic, you try to send a command every swing, and every swing you might get random shadow. It is basically a no cost effect that generates use. I actually dislike chaos aura, it fires too often.
They will get use out of it if they want it, but if any of this is passive for EG it skews a little bit. 300 mana drain every 3 forms may not be alot but with the right offense that can actually do something. Stupidity? Yes plz. Etc.
Tertiaries already do everything you listed:
- Damage type shifts
- Alternate kill conditions
- Etc
This is not something we need to add. A good rule of thumb is if you do not have to complicate things, don't. The warrior addition is just that, unneeded complication.
They will get use out of it if they want it, but if any of this is passive for EG it skews a little bit. 300 mana drain every 3 forms may not be alot but with the right offense that can actually do something. Stupidity? Yes plz. Etc.
Tertiaries already do everything you listed:
- Damage type shifts
- Alternate kill conditions
- Etc
This is not something we need to add. A good rule of thumb is if you do not have to complicate things, don't. The warrior addition is just that, unneeded complication.
Unknown2012-02-17 20:39:37
Shedrin's post does raise this big concern, which is why I had a feeling that the change might be almost, but not quite, enough:
Does this leave enough time to lash someone without aeon?
Part of the reason why succumb and lash were switched around was because MD's had active aeon + active mana drain, while SD's had passives of both. That was switched.
Now SD's will not have aeon, but they will have an active mana drain.
Should this be changed?
Does this leave enough time to lash someone without aeon?
Part of the reason why succumb and lash were switched around was because MD's had active aeon + active mana drain, while SD's had passives of both. That was switched.
Now SD's will not have aeon, but they will have an active mana drain.
Should this be changed?
Unknown2012-02-17 20:47:52
Maybe, considering that it takes 6 balances to set up said combo, though you do get to attack during that time. Probably a weaker passive drain, however, given that SDs (and Gloms in general) are fairly specialized in mana drain and mana drain supporting abilities.
Unknown2012-02-17 20:49:24
Sojiro:
Shedrin's post does raise this big concern, which is why I had a feeling that the change might be almost, but not quite, enough:
Does this leave enough time to lash someone without aeon?
Part of the reason why succumb and lash were switched around was because MD's had active aeon + active mana drain, while SD's had passives of both. That was switched.
Now SD's will not have aeon, but they will have an active mana drain.
Should this be changed?
Hmm, well it'll still depend on the numbers, but this new skill is supposed to be the alternative to aeon/choke. And this skill is bal/eq-free so it's more 'passive' than 'active' when we're referring to active/passive aeon/mana drain. They'll be able to give sleep every balance while lashing which would help. Also it'll be a lot clunkier without active Lash to build up charges.
Turnus2012-02-17 20:53:04
Hey Shuyin, is there any possibility that when/if changes are accepted, admin will run them in a test server for fine-tuning the balance details before putting it live into the game? You might want to include asking about that.
Considering lash is being used to build up shadow charges, I think just testing if that's enough at the very end (assuming this is even the idea that's used) can help. Not to mention answering any other lingering questions before loading it up.
Considering lash is being used to build up shadow charges, I think just testing if that's enough at the very end (assuming this is even the idea that's used) can help. Not to mention answering any other lingering questions before loading it up.
Unknown2012-02-17 20:53:45
Absolutely, Turnus
RE: the rest - That's true, being able to sleep + lash would be great, but runs the risk of charges running out if you don't do it Right (tm)
RE: the rest - That's true, being able to sleep + lash would be great, but runs the risk of charges running out if you don't do it Right (tm)
Turnus2012-02-17 21:07:43
Oh, and quick question. What about this combo for astrology users (who depending on the signs/person will have aeon), that would be insanely powerful to pooka/triple sleep/aeon in one balance. Though granted will be dependent on the astro signs.
Xiel2012-02-17 21:14:15
Indeed. Astrology is variable enough to the point that it would be highly unlikely to be too strong, in my opinion, especially after having played with it myself. I think that it shouldn't be that overwhelming, especially since Astrology wouldn't be building back the shadow charges needed to unleash more shadow manipulation affs - provided, of course, that either nativities or the signs themselves are in ideal position to use aeon in the first place.
