It'll just make them hexen MD's without hexes, I don't think it'll be a big problem.

Sojiro:

It'll just make them hexen MD's without hexes, I don't think it'll be a big problem.

?? Does not compute.

I mean for sure astro SDs will be much stronger than astro MDs, but that was kind of the point: trying to make all tertiaries valid for 1v1. I don't see it being particularly OP unless there's some good skull rays, but that's very variable so shouldn't be too big an issue.

Oh, I mean the 'able to sleeplock fairly reliably' part of hexes, not so much the rest.

Well, it would be stronger than hexen MDs in that it can be done all in one combo. Whereas hexen MDs need the sleep to stick long enough to regain balance and do a follow up aeon. I realize the variability of astrology makes it hard to balance, but figured it was worth bringing up to consider at least.

The shadow manipulation idea seems really nice, but I do have one major qualm. It should not be a free action. I can hardly think of any offensive abilities that don't consume either bal or eq. The ones that are free are targeting passives (fae, gems), and using an order ability (pooka, induce). Potentially stacking three to five affs/attacks at once should not be a free action. I understand that you want them to be able to sleeplock, but that doesn't mean the entire ability gets a free pass. My suggestion would be to give it a small bal/eq cost, and allow you to empower it, spending one power to bypass the bal/eq loss.

Shadow manipulation costs shadowcharges to execute, so while they don't consume eq/bal, you have to build up to them.

I can understand that. Let me think on it.

Honestly, consuming power to make it bypass the balance/eq req does add another layer to balance the aff output. So I'm warming up to the idea.

Seems like the major issues for this revision involve:
-adjustments of costs of certain abilities (focus body ones)
-free balance shadow manipulation
-possible ability to give knighthood attacks a chance to build up a charge.

Shadow manipulation costs shadowcharges to execute, so while they don't consume eq/bal, you have to build up to them.

I did think of that, but the build up is already existing attacks that have their own effect. I'd much rather see a separate shadow balance to keep you from using five one charge effects simultaneously. That seems like a bit much to me.*

*Just remember that I'm an Aeromancer dreamweaver, I can't kill anyone. My concept of combat balance is likely a bit skewed.

Nightkiss, nightgaze, lash, and scourge? They're all negligible without 1) aeon effect, which we had but was decisively removed or 2) cure hindering, which this report aims to bring.

5 one-charge afflictions? Sleep, manadrain, addiction, fracturedskull - all can be cured fairly quickly, since they run on separate curing balances (wake, sip mana, galingale/focusmind, arnica(?)/mending).

Shadow manipulation costs shadowcharges to execute, so while they don't consume eq/bal, you have to build up to them.


Yes that may be true but so do many other things. SS use spirits to execute all which are on balance, hexes to a smaller degree use charges. I have to agree with Lilia. 1-2 attacks at a time was passable, but any more than that seems off. I also understand that it was to help with sleep locks, but not ever tertiary that the SD's choose has to have a sleeplock. MD's for instance don't have access to a sleep lock with healing or astro either.

And yes they may be minor afflictions on their own, but if you talking hitting with all 5 for free, plus a beast attack, plus a pooka order, plus an eq/balance attack (or two hexes), they're not so minor anymore.

Why not go back with the original seperate "shadow balance" tossed in with maybe a 1-2p "empowered" cost to hurl two attacks at once on that balance?

The original separate shadow balance was something that was not related to balance or equilibrium at all. You want the charge-less shadow balance system back ..? That's less burst (which is absolutely needed for wiccan) and more of an extra aff on every normal attack.

No not the chargeless one, everything that is up to now, but make it have its own balance like beast attacks. So you still need charges and eq/balance to use.

What if choke causes people to... pass out? A brief tick based unconsciousness curable with focus spirit? Every so often the clinging shadows tighten around their neck, cutting off oxygen to the brain.

Would be helpful with every one of their terts, useful in group, help build toward varied kill conditions and yet curable, and definitely not auto-win, so long as the unconsciousness is brief and the tick times are sufficiently long.

I share the concerns regarding the seperate balance, and overkilling with afflictions too easily. That said, I look at this from the position of a knight, which is much firmer ground for me. I also don't feel that, with a large DMP and weapon aura already existing in the form of Nightkiss, that Ebonguard require additional spec benefit.

Also, since I don't have any guardian/wiccan experience to speak of, take it with a grain of salt. However, having (crudely) mini-psionics where there was no mini-psionics before seems like something that should require healthy scrutiny and skepticism.

I look at it from the perspective of other knight terts, across all orgs, including Crow. Night already brings solid benefits to a knight- moreso than Crow, even as is, even discounting the, for knights, very situational choke. Slapping on shadow generation on swings and seperate balance attacks seems possibly excessive, given other tertiaries.

Now, if we were going to go through and give all the terts for knights a bit of a makeover and increase their relevance, that would be one thing. But that would be a truly massive undertaking. But like, Sacraments, the closest I get to a weapon aura is righetous arms- which is nice against undead opponents, generally negligible against others, and requires Holy Light, a resource that is, compared to every other resource of similar vein, far more difficult to acquire.

Necromancy has been in my memory, and continues to be a generally robust tertiary for knights, but their weapon aura equivalent actually lowers their weapon stats! And, see report 767, looks like that aspect is there to stay.

I just do not see where Night, in terms of its use as a knight spec, needs to have the sort of benefit attached that is being suggested.

Rainydays:

I share the concerns regarding the seperate balance, and overkilling with afflictions too easily. That said, I look at this from the position of a knight, which is much firmer ground for me. I also don't feel that, with a large DMP and weapon aura already existing in the form of Nightkiss, that Ebonguard require additional spec benefit.

I feel you are wrong, given that Choke is a staple of Ebonguard combat, primarily as a 'finishing' move. I have already made my opinion known to Sojiro in greater length and detail.

There's no point in trying to explain here, but suffice it to say that we diverge greatly on this point and that I see no reason for the Choke replacement to be useless to Knights.

Xenthos:

I feel you are wrong, given that Choke is a staple of Ebonguard combat, primarily as a 'finishing' move. I have already made my opinion known to Sojiro in greater length and detail.

There's no point in trying to explain here, but suffice it to say that we diverge greatly on this point and that I see no reason for the Choke replacement to be useless to Knights.

It wouldn't be useless, the option would be there to build it up over the course of the fight, but is shouldn't be building passively. If Nightkiss aura gave up its weaponaura effect, perhaps. But objectively?

Large amounts of DMP
Weaponaura
and additional affliction power building passively, and useable on its own balance?

Pass. The other five knight guilds seem to have gotten along fine without having choke as a finisher. Some terts, including Crow, don't have anything that particularly IS a finisher for knights.

It shouldn't be useless to EG, and it's not. But with the healthy defenses Night already has with existing abilitites and weapon aura, EG Night sure doesn't need to be passively building shadows up to fire off afflictions on a seperate balance.

I already said I'm not going to bother arguing it here. I feel you are wrong. I have made my argument known somewhere that is not just an echo chamber. Removing a skill that has great use and potential and saying that the replacement is not to be used by us is silly, and that's that.

Why not make it so that some powers require an athame to be wielded, and the others are available to an ebonguard without an athame, but would consume eq? I agree that your tertiary should at least give you some sort of extra offense. We'd just need to be careful about what to give them.

Xenthos:

I already said I'm not going to bother arguing it here. I feel you are wrong. I have made my argument known somewhere that is not just an echo chamber. Removing a skill that has great use and potential and saying that the replacement is not to be used by us is silly, and that's that.

Very well. I have made my my argument. I feel you are wrong. I have done so in the open rather than in the figurtive smoke-filled room. Removing a skill that, for knights, was a situational finisher and attempting to replace it with a categorical imrpovement that puts it head and shoulders above other terts available to knights is silly, and that's that.


(Edit- and before words get put in my mouth, I'm largely ok with it if EG aren't passively building shadow points on swings. They don't need that on top of weapon aura and nightkiss DMP.)

Rivius:

Why not make it so that some powers require an athame to be wielded, and the others are available to an ebonguard without an athame, but would consume eq? I agree that your tertiary should at least give you some sort of extra offense. We'd just need to be careful about what to give them.

That was in fact my argument, that both restrictions made the skill useless for Ebonguard, especially considering Choke's current effectiveness (you use your warrior attacks to get them to the point that you land Choke as a means to win).

So kudos for considering the problem and not just trying to dismiss it out-of-hand. I appreciate it!

That's also the easiest way to balance it as well.