So I pitched the idea to the admin, here's the relevant snippets:

(Envoys): Iosai says, "It sounds interesting, to me, at least. Quite vague ideas though. What kind of affs?"

*explaining here*

(Envoys): Iosai says, "I'm not sure I like the idea of no-eq afflictions."

(Envoys): Estarra says, "At a glance, i'm not fond of knight swings giving 'threads'"

(Envoys): Estarra says, "Sounds like those deathmark type stuff which i'm not sure is a choke replacement."

(Envoys): Estarra says, "What if threads built from 1-10 and the afflictions just automatically trigger at certain points, at 2 threads, it gets mana drain, 4 thread=sleep, 6 thread, stupidity, 8 threads=leglock, 10 threads=stun, then at 10, the shadow disappears."

(Envoys): Estarra says, "Heck, it could even range from 1-20 with 20 giving a big effect, but the shadows completely disappear at every dawn no matter what."

(Envoys): Estarra says, "Anyway, I like the general idea of this!"

Conclusion: Shadow manipulation idea is interesting, so going to proceed with that angle. However, the actual implementation needs work. I'll be working on thinking up a new proposal that resembles Estarra's suggestion. It will probably be most like SS spirit build-up.

Stay tuned!

Similar in what aspects? Doesn't SS spirit build-up require separate active eqs to build spirits (not an extra effect added on top of scourge/lash/minorsecond) and also weakens their passives at the same time?

Just that there's been sporadic references to SS spirits throughout the thread but it doesn't seem all that similar to me.

I meant that depending on when you use the big bad unleash attack, it will do different things depending on how many spirits are haunting the enemy.

P.S. I think I'd prefer 10 levels, 20 seems obnoxious and complicated.

It dosn't sound like she was talking about a release as much as:

Every x hits that accrue a thread, you automatically and uncontrollably also do an extra 'free' thing. You hit with Lash once, has a thread, you hit twice, another plus extra mana drain. On the fourth lash, you do a sleep attack, and so on.
I really don't like that sort of design, and neither will combatants, I bet. You'd gimp yourself by attacking someone too much, and would have to play a major counting game!

Alternately, it sounds like she could have meant that after you get to a certain point all thread attacks get the extra aff/ability, which is pretty darn OP.

Yeah, the idea as presented is gonna be a bit useless for night users, but I can work with it. So you're right, it'd be gimpy.

The idea in my head most resembles SS spirit build up, which is why I mentioned that. But it would be kind of burst like

I too do not like the counting game, since it will basically make sleep useless. We'll think more on how to make the mechanic more pleasant to players and the Admin.

Yeah, I think that working it like a resource skill, but with a resource you have to gather during combat will be the best way to go.

The changeover to a thread-build mechanic over the manipulate mechanic is awkward, in my mind. Especially if the way threads are built are kept to the same lash/scourge/nightkiss/nightgaze/(maybe knight swing) process, but I expect the process will just be altered to be both desirable and effective too. Guess I'll wait to see what is drafted up to add thoughts to that when Shuyin does it.

This is the 3nd revised version of the Shadow Manipulation idea, after taking into admin feedback.

These are the newest changes compared to the third version:
1. Threads are no longer built on the shadow, but are now attached to the victim.
2. Thread limit is bumped up to 10.
3. Thread costs are bumped up by 1.
4. Threads are no longer built up by Night attacks or warrior moves.
5. There is a new move called bind that builds threads on a victim once every move.
6. Each thread worsens the health (via attacks) and mana (via lash) you lose by having your shadow stolen.
7. Threads will now decay from a victim if they are not in the presence of the Night user. 1 every 5 seconds.
8. Added amnesia to the lowest level affliction list.
9. Swapped fracturedskull for stupidity.
10. Stolen shadows will decay at dawn of an IC day.
11. All manipulations will cost EQ, there will be no way to bypass this.

If there are any other comments or feedback that can be given regarding the mechanics of the idea, feel free to chime in!

Once again, I would appreciate more theorycrafting regarding the afflictions and potential output, but please note that nothing has changed regarding the possible combinations aside from the addition of amnesia.

You can even argue that the burst offense was slightly downgraded since you can no longer manipulate and immediately do some other attack.

I think the biggest change this time around revolves around how threads worsen the effect of lash/damage attacks, so if I can get feedback there, that'd be cool. Check the alternate idea regarding that at the bottom too.

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Shadow Manipulation (Version 4).

The basic theme is to lash threads of binding on your opponent, which allows you to manipulate his shadow to induce debilitating effects.

The skill works as follows:

Note: Asterisks (*) mean that the actual number may be subject to change.

-First, it requires that the victim's shadow be stolen (Night Steal). A Night user can only steal/possess one shadow at any given time.

-Next, threads of binding must be attached to the victim (henceforth known as "threads"*) in order to empower the shadow enough to harm the victim.

-The victim can have up to 10* threads attached to him at any given time.

-Threads are attached to the victim through a new command, Bind, which costs 0p and 2* seconds of equilibrium. Syntax: SHADOWDANCE BIND (target)

-For every thread attached to the victim, the amount of damage a stolen shadow will do increases by 50* health. Similarly, the amount of mana that a stolen shadow boosts night lashes increases by 50* mana.
*These effects already exist when you steal an enemy's shadow. Having threads binding you simply worsens them.

Note: Threads can only be bound to a victim if you possess his or her shadow.

-Probing a shadow will let the Night user know how many threads are currently on the victim.

-Threads will fade from a victim at a rate of 1 every 5* seconds if they are not in the presence of the Night user.

-Once a victim's shadow has been stolen, you can induce a variety of effects on the victim, as long as the victim suffers from enough bindings. Syntax: SHADOWDANCE MANIPULATE (target) (effect1) (effect2) (effect3) ...

-Here is a preliminary list of effects, sorted by cost:

2 threads:
*Sleep, Mana drain, Stupidity, Addiction, Amnesia

3 threads:
*Bleed, Throatlock, Leglock

4 threads:
*Blackout, Stun

Note: Any manipulation that costs more than 2 threads requires a wiccan athame to be wielded.

-The manipulation command consumes about 3* seconds of equilibrium. Furthermore, there is a cost of 1p for every effect induced upon manipulation.

-Successful manipulations will use up the the corresponding amount of threads, which means that more will need to be bound once more.

Changes to Skills:
-Stolen shadows will decay upon the victim's death, the Night user's death, or at dawn of an IC day.
-Night users may only steal one shadow from a person. Multiple Night users can't steal the same shadow.
-Probing a shadow will let you know how many threads are on a victim

-----------------------------------------------------------

The point of this ability is to afford every Shadowdancer tertiary the chance to do a sleeplock, the staple of wiccan offense. This is achieved by allowing for sleepcloud/double hex for hexen and sleepcloud/manipulate sleep sleep for healers and astrologers. Once the sleeplock has been properly set, the Night user is free to continue sleeping the victim while at the same time slowly building up afflictions that will eventually lead him to be toaded. Note that all of the afflictions serve a purpose yet have cures which are easily managed by anyone with a decent system.

While it may be argued that some of the effects are very powerful, I would like to argue that the thread cost and the gathering mechanism serve to ensure that the afflictions are not overwhelming until the right circumstances. It is not possible to quickly gather enough threads to dispatch your opponent with ease. None of the afflictions by themselves are overly powerful. The purpose of aeon is to delay cures and waking enough to build enough afflictions for the toadcurse. It is not possible to replicate such a strong effect without utilizing other equally strong effects.

1v1:
Ideally, in my head, wiccan combat will center around this mechanic in the following way: sleeplock -> manipulate sleep/aff/aff -> bind -> repeat until you're set up -> kill

The above exactly replicates the how wiccans currently kill today, which is the entire point of suggesting a replacement mechanic for choke.

Groups:
Given the stolen shadow requirement, only one Night user may manipulate your shadow at any one time. The effect should be minimal, given that almost all of the afflictions that manipulations deal have cures. The effect on group combat should not be anything substantial compared to any other class.

Furthermore, threads cannot be "pre-built" against a victim prior to engaging them in combat due to the shadow requirement. Also, none of the strongest effects can be immediately unleashed without spending at least 6+ seconds building threads.

Alternate Ideas to Consider:
-Threads will not worsen any shadow effects, but they will also not decay from the victim until the shadow decays at dawn.
-Increase the amount of EQ during manipulation depending on how many effects are called.

I GIVE UP, HERE'S AEON (alternate choke replacement idea):
-Allow a stolen shadow to be crushed by the Night user for 2p that will afflict the owner of the shadow with a form of aeon that bypasses quicksilver. 2-3 seconds of equilibrium. This destroys the shadow and means that the Night user will have to steal it once more for future aeon attempts.

When I first heard the proposal for shadow idea, I thought it was OP and similar to other skills. Trying to think of something unique, I thought it'd be interesting if, as the 'threads' built up, they would automatically release certain ailments.

For example:
Thread 1
Thread 2 - aeon
Thread 3
Thread 4 - mana drain
Thread 5
Thread 6 - aeon
Thread 7
Thread 8 - leglock
Thread 9
Thread 10 - stun

After reaching 10, the shadow would disappear and spell ends. Threads would be built by doing certain spells. Per the above, you basically are getting five double ailments/effects.

I'm not sure I understand what the "counting game" is or what would make this difficult to compliment other strategies. The shadowdancer should be able to know which next extra ailment would be released and have control when it would be released (after all, they choose when to cast the trigger spells). Yes, to get the most out of it, you would need to be aware of when an effect was coming (probe the shadow or whatever) and thus have to be discriminating when to release a spell. It's called strategy. I like that better than building up some pool and using that pool to release one of seven or eight spells whenever you want--that's what I think is OP and overreaching (basically consolidating seven spells into one).

Okay, I get it. Let me try again in a bit.

Well, that certainly throws a wrench in the process, but I can understand it. A quick note will have to be made that if you want aeon in that queue, it'll have to bypass quicksilver to be useful. The actions that would create threads are all 4s if I remember correctly, so that will have to be remembered too.

Instead of attaching thread-creation to existing Night attacks (lash, scourge, etc.), create a faster/more effective attack that will likewise be useful in the lull between thread spells. This is because, in my head, 12s to lash 3 times for a single aeon and subsequent mana drain is not that effective, though I understand that this is just the *beginning* of the idea.

More fine-tuning, ahoy.

I'm not a fan of the solution. You can't use Lash, Nightkiss or Nightgaze without inadvertently triggering one of these thread effects? You have to make sure you've hit an odd number of times before trying a combo?

EDIT: I could bork things by blacking them out and using my command skill, or just doing my own counting and messing with them. I don't think there is enough control in the hands of the SD with this sort of mechanic, tbh. I know it would annoy the heck out of me, and I already deal with timing things to my demesne fine! You have to time attacks to your fae, and use them in this specific pattern that lets you hit with your other effects, that you need... Without choke, SDs will NEED something reliable and fairly powerful, and I don't think this kind of thing (at least without significant tweaking) gives it to them. Having an extra stacked attack is nice, but only if you have control over it.

I think I'm gonna suggest a new attack that builds up the threads like Viynain said, instead of attaching thread-building to Night attacks.

It'd just be simpler that way.

I'll write it out in a bit.

That would work out much better, it wouldn't lock you out of your stat damaging abilities while you try to do other things.

Presumably it'd have some sort of eq-less syntax for when you want to unleash the threads? Except for perhaps aeon, no single aff ability will really be worth it, imo.

So if say you want a specific affliction high up in the buildup process... you'd be building up, it's be throwing random affs you don't care about until you get to the one you'd like. You use it, and then that thread is done with? If you wanted to use a lower aff after it, you'd use another stored thread?

Ideally, the thread effects on the lower end will be made desirable rather than throw-away effects. This is, after all, going to be a fairly important skill as it replaces Choke in the long run.

I still think that just letting you build up and unleash what you want instead of counting up and automatically doing it at a certain point works a lot better. Perhaps you could mix them? The thread action only generates threads, but it periodically has some extra effect that cycles through minor effects. So, as you're building to unleash your aeon/anorexia combo (or whatever) you sometimes also do paralysis or manadrain.

I lied, here's the basic idea, I'll write it up better after some food:

We'll call it...Insert Name Here. It'll cost 1p and 3s of eq.

All this attack will do is strip quicksilver/insomnia and increment the threadcount. Then, depending on the number of threads, it will cycle through afflictions like what Estarra suggested up top.

So here's a rough list that I totally didn't play test, but it's probably gonna be something like this:

1= Nothing
2= Sleep
3= Aeon
4= Leglock
5= Aeon
6= Throatlock
7= Stun
8 = Reset

It's a work in progress, basically I want the bottom half to stick aeon, then it will slowly build up as you get to the higher end.

Example:

Attack1: insomnia gone / quicksilver gone
Attack2: insomnia gone / quicksilver gone / sleep
Attack3: insomnia gone / quicksilver gone / aeon

And so forth.

All I can with certainty is that this should be test-server playtested with firstly, to see if people will be able to phase anyone with decent curing.