In small combat or single combat, yes, no choke would make them totally useless.

EDIT: I'm going to disagree with Druken on why exactly, but yes, I agree with the sentiment.

Estarra:

Do people truly think Shadowdancers would be severely gimped without choke and anything huge replacing it? (Compared to, say, Moondancers.)

Very much. Moondancers get by with passive mana drain and active aeon. SDs without choke won't be able to maintain enough hindering/rapid enough magic damage in order to pull of a toadcurse.

Hexes is the go-to combat ability and can creep by (maybe) with Jinx, but Astrology and Healing wiccans would be out of the combat loop besides becoming support people. They would not be able to kill by themselves without Choke. The proposals have been made to take into account all three tertiaries so no one would feel pressured that they 'have' to go Hexes to participate in singular combat.

Right, so we're looking for a spell comparable to Waning. Now, truthfully, was the shadow thread idea on par? Just asking!

Well, without succumb, it needs to be substantially better then waning. It has to be able to hold someone down for long enough to get several (many?) active mana drains in.

EDIT: Both hold you down, and stop you from sipping mana potion/other mana cures.

If they're given straight aeon, it doesn't need to be better than waning, MD's did just fine with normal lash for years before the swap. The only reason there was a swap was because Succumb was too powerful for Choke.

EDIT: Sorry, didn't mean that to come out all negative, was just commenting!

Basically what Enyalida said.

With an active mana drain in the form of lash, the replacement idea does have to be strong enough to keep the victim asleep or hindered enough in curing in order to be toaded.

Aeon (and related abilities like choke) did this.

What the thread idea aims to accomplish is to allow the Shadowdancer the ability to either reliably give aeon plus some key afflictions to put the victim behind in curing (to allow for many active mana drains) or just give a reliably strong and varied amount of afflictions in a short amount of time to do the same thing.

Asmodea:

If they're given straight aeon, it doesn't need to be better than waning, MD's did just fine with normal lash for years before the swap. The only reason there was a swap was because Succumb was too powerful for Choke.

EDIT: Sorry, didn't mean that to come out all negative, was just commenting!

Thing is, Estarra already said it probably shouldn't be a clone of waning, which is why we tried to suggest a varied idea to begin with. And given the discussion that occured, even that idea got...mixed into something that basically just gave aeon anyway.

Oh well, alright. I didn't think it was really possible to use Moon well with a straight mana damage skill like lash. But I think that we/you don't want to do straight aeon.

Asmodea:

If they're given straight aeon, it doesn't need to be better than waning, MD's did just fine with normal lash for years before the swap. The only reason there was a swap was because Succumb was too powerful for Choke.

EDIT: Sorry, didn't mean that to come out all negative, was just commenting!

SD's lash is actually buffed over the old MD lash as well. It is improved by having stolen shadows.

Edit: Just saying that it doesn't need to be aeon++, Shuyin's suggestion sounded fair to me.

Yeah. But outside of aeon, you can't stick anorexia easily, and therefore it doesn't matter much.

Asmodea:

If they're given straight aeon, it doesn't need to be better than waning, MD's did just fine with normal lash for years before the swap. The only reason there was a swap was because Succumb was too powerful for Choke.

EDIT: Sorry, didn't mean that to come out all negative, was just commenting!

They didn't, really. During the days of Moon Wane+Lash, only Hexen Moondancers were able to pull of a toad (and even then, they had problems), because straight active aeon + straight active manadrain couldn't achieve the toadcurse requirement without having a form of sleeplock. When Succumb/Lash were switched, Healing Moondancers fared slightly better (and Hexen Moondancers became considerably better).

With that said, if Shadowdancers are going to get an active aeon with an active manadrain, it should at least bypass quicksilver and help with sticking a sleeplock.

They didn't, really. During the days of Moon Wane+Lash, only Hexen Moondancers were able to pull of a toad (and even then, they had problems), because straight active aeon + straight active manadrain couldn't achieve the toadcurse requirement without having a form of sleeplock. When Succumb/Lash were switched, Healing Moondancers fared slightly better (and Hexen Moondancers became considerably better).

With that said, if Shadowdancers are going to get an active aeon with an active manadrain, it should at least bypass quicksilver and help with sticking a sleeplock.


I achieved moderate success, as a hexen. And while it's nice to try for something that enables all tertiaries good success for 1v1, the simple truth is that the way that the tertiaries lie, hexes is always going to be far ahead if you're talking about aeon.

The powered, shadow-consuming quicksilver-bypassing aeon could work, with an extended duration of 30 seconds~ compared to normal aeon.

They didn't, really. During the days of Moon Wane+Lash, only Hexen Moondancers were able to pull of a toad (and even then, they had problems), because straight active aeon + straight active manadrain couldn't achieve the toadcurse requirement without having a form of sleeplock. When Succumb/Lash were switched, Healing Moondancers fared slightly better (and Hexen Moondancers became considerably better).

With that said, if Shadowdancers are going to get an active aeon with an active manadrain, it should at least bypass quicksilver and help with sticking a sleeplock.


Well they did really, since I was one, rather successful as a Hexen and a Healer and without sleeplocks. And aeon is what helps stick a sleeplock.

Admittedly, now I'm a bit confused on how to proceed.

What should we be aiming for in a choke replacement idea now?

If the manipulation idea (versions 1-4) isn't suitable, and the version with random/limited/costly afflictions wouldn't be any good, then what's next?

Are we just gonna go with the shadow aeon idea?

Sojiro:

Are we just gonna go with the shadow aeon idea?

Disappointingly, that seems like the best way forward.

I think that is all we will have left unless we can make "thread empowered" skills. For instance.... Deathmark is not trans, but it does alot to OTHER SKILLS. Holy Light is built up with various skills but can then be used to buff other skills. Neither of these are trans skills but set a standard for throw in abilities. As HolyLight seemed a random add, and Deathmark was the "solution" to a report of changes.

I'm pretty disappointed by this overall. From what I understand, we are taking choke as it was and replacing it with aeon, which is really just going to mean MD and SD combat is going to be nigh identical except instead of succumb, we have lash. That's a pretty huge hit to SD combat

Yeah, I guess we'll just roll with shadow aeon.

Now, should they also get some form of succumb then?

The whole succumb issue stemmed from the fact that Moon had active aeon and active mana drain and Night had passive aeon and passive mana drain, so they were switched.

Now that Night is presumably getting active aeon, by that same logic, shouldn't they be getting passive mana loss given the logic above?

EDIT: Unless someone else has a better idea, of course.

I go with solution C. Retain choke, adjust a mechanic.

Give the above expectations that it would be a carbon copy aeon (some stuff changes, otherwise the same old aeon).

Would the "nerf choke" Party agree with simply adjusting some mechanics of choke? For instance the slowing down passives, maybe delaying attacks against choked people or something?

Options are deal with choke as it is, or deal with a better aeon that wont hit caster. Your picks.

If I put it in that light, anyone have better ideas before you get the auto aeon gank?

P.S. Make lash a TINY bit stronger or faster as succumb had a long eq if I recall. The faster aeon time seems it should handle most of the issue.

OR

(Keep in mind the holylight style idea could still be posed. Buffs Lash and burns threads, maybe makes scourge faster for threads, burn a burst of threads to make nightksis do more, that sort of thing. Threads must be built up via special actions though, but this could vary from things like nightkiss to shadow steal.)

Question from a peanut in the gallery.


How do MDs kill, in other words, how do they manage to land aeon against a no-speed defense target, and stick it long enough to matter?

I remember a conversation on Ashteru's departed clan that went like this:

Day 1:
(Skeleton Hearth): You say, "Blarg choke blarg."

(Skeleton Hearth): Chokefan\\o/ says, "Lol, choke is fine. MDs have aeon."

Day 2 or 3 or something:

(Skeleton Hearth): You say, "What if SDs had a more traditional aeon system instead of choke?"

(Skeleton Hearth): Chokefan\\o/ says, "Lol no, aeon sux."


In addition to that, are MDs required to take a certain tert to actually kill?


EDIT: Also, if it is going to be aeon++, then it doesn't need a succumb version, that would just be following some insane logic that SD must be MD++. Of course, if it isn't going to be aeon++, the above statement isn't really relevant.