Dunno. TBH, I'm not totally sold on stun as the finisher move since that'd be boring/not as useful as expected. Maybe some big mana drain at the end instead. I'll sleep on it.

I think what I'm gonna do is request for a way to destroy the shadow early if you need to, so you can't steal someone else's shadow if you already own one.

For now, I'm leaning towards making the threads only decay when the shadow does, and I'd prefer the stolen shadow only decay after an IC day at the most.

rika:

I don't think astro/healing should even be taken into account. Everyone knows hexes is the way to go for wiccans and that is what we should be balancing around. If you want to make astro/healing viable as well, you'd need to consider something that doesn't benefit hexes as much but somehow helps the other two terts.

That's not how balancing of other classes works, so I do not agree.

rika:

I don't think astro/healing should even be taken into account. Everyone knows hexes is the way to go for wiccans and that is what we should be balancing around. If you want to make astro/healing viable as well, you'd need to consider something that doesn't benefit hexes as much but somehow helps the other two terts.

If that was the philosophy used to balance mages, Elementalism and all of its specs should be nothing but flavour abilities, because mages have access to TK.

foolofsound:

If that was the philosophy used to balance mages, Elementalism and all of its specs should be nothing but flavour abilities, because mages have access to TK.

And you think people ever consider what runist or dreamweaving mages can do when we discuss their skills?

Balancing works around the highest level. That is why we don't (usually) consider what people without certain trans skills can or cannot do. Warriors are balanced around having full rune sets, because if we balance around people without them, then people with runes would be too strong. If hexes is the best skill for wiccans to take, that is what we should be balancing around.

Okay, here's another a new version of the Shadowtwist idea:

ShadowTwist (Version 2):

-Requires a stolen shadow from the victim (from Night Steal)
*stolen shadows will last until dawn of every IC day.
*there will be a command to destroy stolen shadows prematurely.
*if there is no stolen shadow, the move will not work.

-Effect: Strips the quicksilver defense off the victim along with a small mana drain (5% of max mana + 150 mana, perhaps, 50% of night lash)
*Furthermore, this skill will begin doing additional afflictions the more this move is used, culminating in a large effect on the 7th twist.
*The 7th twist destroys the shadow, meaning that further twists will require a new stolen shadow.
*The additional afflictions will be masked under a generic line.

Example:

1st person (victim):
Shuyin grasps a shadow in his hands and twists it violently, smiling in satisfaction as it seemingly writhes in agony.
You feel your body falter under the supremacy of Mother Night.

^Same line regardless of the move having the tightened parameter.

1st person (caster):
You grasp (victim)'s shadow in your hands and twist it violently.
The (number) twists upon the shadow render it far weaker than before.

-Syntax: SHADOWDANCE TWIST (target)
*costs 0p if not tightened, 1p if tightened
*takes 3s equilibrium

-The tighten parameter will be used to increment the twists to the opponent's shadow. Doing the command without the tighten parameter simply gives the quicksilver stripping effect and slight mana drain without additional affs / increasing the twist count.

-Here is a preliminary list of additional effects upon every twist:

Note: All attacks will strip quicksilver and do a small mana drain (because of the twist move), this will be represented by "QM".

*Please make sure that the aeon given for this skill lasts 30-45 seconds instead of the standard 15 seconds, since it is not as reliable as the standard aeon attacks.

1 = QM
2 = QM + sleep/sleep
3 = QM + aeon
4 = QM + stupidity
5 = QM + throatlock
6 = QM + leglock
7 = QM + aeon + large mana drain, destroys shadow

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This revised version takes into account Estarra's ideas about renaming the skill, requiring a stolen shadow and exchanging sleep for mana drain.

I've further revised the suggested afflictions on every twist to better take advantage of these changes.

I've chosen 7 twists instead of 10 because 7 twists seems like a better number to work with, especially given the need for a burst offense if you're a wiccan.

I've decided to keep the sleep but instead made it double sleep to give other tertiaries some help, but not as much compared to when it always stripped insomnia in the first version.

I understand there may be issues about the chosen afflictions or thoughts about the skill as a whole, so let's hear them!

So; 6 power and 9s of EQ spent to get to the first aeon effect?

Edit: I'm basically a little concerned by the power and time spent to get there, along with the reduced control (need to cycle up to get within range for whatever you are aiming for).

With this list, I'd still be happier with a 1p cost per move. 3p to get to the first aeon, 7p and a lot of time spent to get all the way through the cycle. Which, if you're focusing directly on it, means you won't be able to toad.

Okay, I've edited it.

I actually fiddled around with a much shorter list which is why I kept it at 2p. I just forgot.

Supremity? Do you mean to say "supremacy"?

Also, how does it start? Let's say I have a stolen shadow, then I tighten it. Does the first 'tighten' hit with QM + sleep/sleep (level 2 in your list) or with plain QM (level 1)? If the former, then it's 2p for the first aeon, and if the latter, it's 3p.

Omg it's an example, fine.

Relevant thoughts please!

Edit: The first twist will do no additional affs. It'll do sleep/sleep on the second use of twist.

This concerns me as being too easy, especially with stratagem. Without hexes you can sleeplock with a beast easily, and aeon before they wake. WITH hexes this means you can throw in some hexes instead. We have to balance it to hexist I think, so try running that one in theorycraft and see how that works out.

I am getting the OMG ganked vibe from this skill in current incarnation since there is no cure and its readily available aeon if nothing else. (Meaning get to next to aeon, vapors, anorexia/stupidity, twist for aeon). Taking this same setup you could easily vapors, anorexia/stupidity, beastcloud/twist, twist for aeon, hex impatience, etc etc etc.

Metawake off/Sleepcloud/pixie/sleep enchant aren't exactly 100% precise or reliable, so I'm gonna say that it isn't "easy" to sleeplock with just a beast. Case in point: Name a non-hexen wiccan fighter who kills non-noobs.

With that said, I'm not totally sold on double sleep, but we'll see what others have to say.

The gank factor isn't as bad as you'd imagine. It's about as bad as getting ganked with a Moon/Aeonics user, since you know, you could just cure the aeon. There's nothing inherently different there. Plus, it'd take about 9s to get to aeon, compared to 6-7s with wane/tarot/aeonics, that's a long time in Gank Time(tm).

I think everything will hinge on the "large mana drain" bit. This needs to replace Choke's ability to cull the large mana regen possible now (sip, sparkle, scroll, beasts, + passives) - and SD certainly can't just spam lash and get someone to a toadable level. This skill doesn't add any useful manadrain except the final ender part, so the only thing I foresee possible is some lashing to get them to 3/4ths of mana at best, then using the ender, and hoping they haven't sipped back.

I was not relying on a sleep enchant, I saw sleep+sleep as an effect.

Yeah, I already said I'm not totally sold on double sleep, so we can bump that down to single sleep if people really prefer. Kind of disappointing that this means healers and astrologers get hosed. Again.

Vadi:

I think everything will hinge on the "large mana drain" bit. This needs to replace Choke's ability to cull the large mana regen possible now (sip, sparkle, scroll, beasts, + passives) - and SD certainly can't just spam lash and get someone to a toadable level. This skill doesn't add any useful manadrain except the final ender part, so the only thing I foresee possible is some lashing to get them to 3/4ths of mana at best, then using the ender, and hoping they haven't sipped back.

That's what the sleeplock and aeon is for.

It's hard to give a serious reply to be honest. I'll just say "no". You're forgetting that Night and Moon have some totally different skills.

honestly, QM + sleep/sleep isn't really any more powered than hexes using a doublewhammy sleep, and since that's ok, I'm not quite sure what the issue is.

My only thing is that it seems pretty straight forward what's going to be done, twist for the sleeplock followed by twist for aeon (much like hexen MD's do). As for it being superior offense to MD's, I think that's quite ok because Moon is much more defensive.

Edit: with this revision, I think SD keeping lash is quite good as well.

It is really easy to sleeplock as a healer wiccan with neurotic aura, pooka and beast sleep.

Naia:

It is really easy to sleeplock as a healer wiccan with neurotic aura, pooka and beast sleep.

That's because, currently, it's fiddly to keep putting Insomnia back up under Choke. When Choke is removed, Healers will be gimped in the sleeplock (again), since I am not aware of how to effectively time an insomnia strip with a sleep combo.

You could conceivably do it with a low latency and some clever numbercrunching to either align your fae to the proper worldtimer (if the auras are on such a timer) or to time your placing the aura to your fae (if the start isn't random, like on runes/motes). Good luck with that.