Oh, my simplest idea basically involves room choke with a line on ql and a delay between cast and effect. And a rename.

That's how group combat is. Anything used on a focused target is multiplied in effectiveness.

Horray, we've come around the full circle.

It is pretty disheartening to have one of our primary offensive skills be deleted, to be told that Shadowdancers were always meant to be "just defensive," and to have virtually every suggestion be denied because it might work well with our neighbor guilds. I'm fairly certain every skill in the game can work together if you have enough people mashing out the right macros.

I was probably prematurely excited by the prospect of learning a new avenue for Shadowdancer combat that wouldn't be the butt of everyone's "Glomdoring is OP" jokes.

Then come up with an idea that works.

You present one (or two) concept(s), some people point out that there are large pitfalls in the approach taken, and you just totally give up, throw in the towel?

EDIT: Incidentally, I like the thematic idea of consuming the body parts of your foes, while they are still living. I just think that the consume idea posted has too much potential to run into the exact same problems choke did, especially the '100% stop sipping basic potions' part. At that point it's not a question of possibly synergizing with your org, it's instantly synergizing with all guilds instantly with no effort.

Whoa whoa whoa, let's not start talking about giving up prematurely while the battle is still on-going. *beseech x for invasion*

It's acknowledged that Choke will be a very hard ability to replace, mainly because wiccan combat revolves around an aeon-like effect. So let's continue hashing out and contributing ideas that could work.

I can't even see that far down the rabbit hole.

If we were in a continuum, the synergy naysayers would be on one end and your interpretation of my post would be on the other. I am falling somewhere in the middle, pointing out the vast inequities of some of the aspersions being cast on the options people are throwing out there.

Don't even try to find an idea that everyone will like. You're not going to. Just keep moving and find something the relevant people will like.

I was looking a lot at Shuyin's post there, actually. Lashing out ironically with a hyperbolic situation to attempt to make the other side of a given argument seem silly, or to evoke some sort of pity reaction (what is this pity you speak of?), is his style.


EDIT: Amusingly, I'm with Alacardael on this one. But of course, anyone who doesn't like the idea isn't relevant, so (in the words of Eventru), I'll just bow out.

Actually, by relevant, i meant the admin, don't jump to assumptions there!

Does anyone else have an opinion on my suggestion (Witch's Blood)? Does it have potential? Is it worth discussing?

Regarding totem-users, synergy and toadcurse not being an instakill. This is me vs two non-Chokers.
http://pastehtml.com.../bo3frs2eq.html

timestamps:
18:02:54.259 start log (0 seconds)
18:03:09.603 toaded (15 seconds)
18:03:15.887 stomped

I know how insanely good (and easy) double lash is. Whatever the Choke replacement is, it doesn't need to be another sleep effect, control effect (metawake off, lol), bleed effect or fae buff. Yes, toadcurse is not insta and it's not even accredited to the casting wiccan, but it's -better- than any insta I have access to. And it's fun.

This is why Shuyin's suggestion is so good. It is complicated to pull off, especially solo, but effective and complementary.

Actually, I've taken everyone's comments to heart and I have a few sweet revisions that will hopefully address the constructive concerns.

I just need to articulate it a bit better.

RE: Non-relevance because person X doesn't like it - I have no idea where that came from. In fact, I kind of need people to question and doubt the proposal just so we can get something more solid going. In fact, I welcome constructive criticism, as evidenced by my short dialogue with Sahmiam in this very thread. What I dislike are posts that simply say, 'Hey I hate this because x' without even offering a bit of advice to try and fix the perceived issue.

RE: Witch's blood. While I like the idea in theory, wouldn't it being a focus spirit cure kind of make it a bit easy to get toaded? Wblood -> focus -> do it again -> focus -> toad. Plus, I'm not sure if the admin will totally go for a new aff with a cure.

As a review, here are the issues with consume that people have posted:
-Complicated
-Useless or OP 1v1
-2 SD's = consume spam and lash spam

I've found that people seem to consider the mana cost of focus spirit to be more impacting than what I've experienced. Going off people who auto focus spirit on faerie fire it can really take up to 5-6 faeriefires in a row (focusing spirit every 4 seconds) on people with decent mana to get to toadable range.

I personally think that even having Wblood be a focus spirit cure would make it useless as they could take the mana cost of focus spirit pretty easily esp. with no other affs beyond passive mana drain. If you're putting out more affs then that costs you power which means that toadcurse isn't viable.

Here is a revision of consume after taking into account people's concerns.

Consume Version 2:

Note: Anything with an asterisk (*) is variable and subject to debate.

-2p* move that takes 2.5s* of EQ, requires a stolen shadow (via Night Steal).
-Syntax: SHADOWDANCE CONSUME (target) EYES/TONGUE/THROAT/FACE
-Depending on the syntax used, a curse will be placed on the victim that will block and take the balance of the corresponding action 1* time when the caster activates the curse:
Eyes - reading healing scrolls
Throat - Sipping health/mana/ego potions (not applying health)
Tongue - Eating sparkleberry effects
Face* - Healing from beasts
-The effects of the curse upon a body part may be stacked up to 3* times, with a line on diagnose stating how severe each curse is. Different curses can be placed on the victim at the same time.
-The curse is inactive until the Night user absorbs the stolen shadow (SHADOWDANCE ABSORB (shadow)), which costs 0p* and 3s* of EQ, where upon every curse placed upon the victim is activated and the shadow is destroyed, which means the Night user has to steal once more.
-The cure to this affliction is to either get blocked (the number depending on the severity) while the curse is active or leave the presence of the Night user, the curse lessening in severity by a level every 4* seconds if done this way. This continues until the victim is fully healed or until the Night user reaches the victim once more. The curse can be cured via running regardless of whether the curse is active or not.
Ex: Shuyin has level 2 eyes and level 1 throat curses. Shuyin gets away. Every 4s, Shuyin loses a level of one of the curses placed on him, continuing until he is fully healed up.

Changes to other skills:
-Standardize the length of time a stolen shadow lasts. Perhaps 5* minutes.

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The point of this ability is for the Shadowdancer to hinder the enemy via sleeplock with hexes or neurosis/aurawarp auras or something astrologer-like in order for consume to consecutively work to drain their mana down to toadable level. Even if the enemy manages to get away, the curse-chasing mechanic allows enough leeway for the Night user to continue his efforts to build curses on the victim. Ideally, it will take a fair level of consumption of 2 out of 3 parts before the victim can be toaded.

Further possible avenues to consider:
-A possible night instakill where if the victim has all 3 parts consumed at a moderate level (2*), then the victim instantly dies. Only the person who owns the victim's shadow can perform the instakill.

-Escaping and then lifting such curses drains the soul, costing the victim precious life force* (bleed or mana*) depending on the number of curses left.
Ex: Shuyin has 3 curses left, he is cured a level after 4s, losing 300 mana in the process, after another 4s, he loses another level and 200 mana in the process, and so forth.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This version differs from the first in 4 ways:
1. Consuming a part does not instantly grant the block
2. Activating the block requires a command / possible loss of eq
3. There is a second cure for the affliction in the form of running away.
4. There is a fourth option to help prevent beast healing.

This version, I feel, is superior to the old version because it addresses the following concerns raised by others:

Complicated - It uses ideas previously seen in other Lusternia skills, namely aurawarp, rubies, and other similar mechanics regarding the build up. It uses mechanics behind anorexia, recessional, banes, and so forth regarding the blocking effect. And it uses mechanics related to phantomspheres, deathmark, etc. regarding the cure process. In short, not much is unfamiliar to the average combatant.

Useless or OP 1v1 - The ability to dictate when to activate the curse and the ability to "curse-chase" allows for more leeway for the Night user compared to the old version. He can build up his attacks, then unleash the curse at the right time in order to kill his opponent. Furthermore, the variable costs of just about everything should help address concerns about being overpowered, since they can be changed as needed. On top of that, the possible tax to curing the curse (loss of mana/blood) can further help the Shadowdancer 1v1, though admittedly, the effect on groups there is a bit greater.

OP in groups - The additional syntax to activate the curse allows the victim more time to get out of his predicament given that simply placing the curse will not instantly activate it.
*In the old version, in a group fight, the process went:
SD1: steal -> consume -> consume -> consume
SD2: hinder -> lash -> lash -> lash -> toad.
*In this new version, it now has to be:
SD1: steal -> consume -> consume -> consume -> activate
SD2: hinder -> hinder -> hinder -> hinder -> lash -> lash -> lash -> toad

As shown in the example above, it takes far more time for a group of people to properly cure block the victim, simply because of the added syntax of having to activate the ability. Of course, with larger groups, this becomes less of an issue, but frankly, there are bigger and more deadly concerns when a much larger group focuses on a victim.

TL;DR: I like this version more than the last one because I did this revision while drunk.

I like. A lot, actually, especially the two phases of prep and then unleash.

One concern I have is that there's nothing there hindering any actual cures. Sleeplock would be near impossible to sustain even one wake without aeon unless you got lucky. I also feel like it would be too easy to run away.

But I do like it, and feel it is a definite improvement from Consume version one.

edit: I thought about it, and I'd actually lean towards a 1p cost.

Yeah that part I'm still thinking about. It's hazy there.

I'm having trouble thinking of anything better than some form of command denial.

Edit: I just thought about it, but what if there was another curse that simply blocked the wake command x times then faded.

The problem there is that there's no such thing as a wake balance. Plus, this change is mainly for hexen and kind-of-but-not-really healers. Astrologers are still hosed, sadly.

Why can't they consume different parts of the shadow aswell? Arms, Legs, Torso etc for different effects?

Also, how long does a shadow last once stolen?

I guess they can, and while it'd be cool, but it's not needed right now. I'd much rather figure something out solid to get to toad, then add the cool stuff from there.

Still trying to figure out a cure hinder or command denialer. Or a better idea. Either works!

And I'm not sure how long shadows last. Definitely not an hour though.

I feel like simple command denial isn't very effective, but that isn't very helpful. I can't think of anything else right now beyond tacking on a 'oh and by the way each level of the curse also slows down all curing bals by xx%).

Stolen shadows don't last long. Maybe 5 minutes. But you can only steal one shadow already so I don't see what you want to change, if anyone else has stolen it you get a message stating so.

Shadows don't disappear on a target's death. So maybe you can steal a second shadow that way, not sure.