What about making it 50%, no cure, and lasting 60s? Would that make it helpful?

Honestly, the simplest thing to do would be to give SSs aeon and give succumb back to replace lash. Though that would be awfully boring, its still worth considering as a fallback option if nothing else.

Personally, I'm not hugely a fan of afflictions that can only be cured by movement/time, which seems the way things are going. I'm not really sure combat is getting "simplified" when instead of being able to cure you spend X amount of time running away to cure yourself.

Turnus:

Honestly, the simplest thing to do would be to give SSs aeon and give succumb back to replace lash. Though that would be awfully boring, its still worth considering as a fallback option if nothing else.

Why are we giving spiritsingers aeon? :o

Oh, I was pretty serious that the very last idea would be to just return room choke, but have it show a line on ql and give it a delay between casting and effect to give everyone a chance to prepare themselves accordingly.

Xenthos:

Why are we giving spiritsingers aeon? :o

Boo, SD not SS. Was only halfpaying attention when I wrote that and gods forbidden I actually proof or reread what I wrte.

Edit: Incidentally, I wonder what the thoughts are of a room effect that gives passive aeon to everybody in the room every X seconds. Have it bypass quicksilver effect since you can't stack it by casting twice in a row. It would take active work to stick the actual aeon, and it allows active lashing etc. I'm not sure if this would be OP or not, I'll leave it to the theorycrafters to debate.

I imagine Aeonics people will be upset that Night gets Aeonfield++

Aeonics users would still be able to use regular aeon on demand though. But that's a valid point.

Sojiro:

Actually, if the issue is that there isn't any way for the SD to hold someone down from escaping now that an aeon effect is gone, movement hindering would be good.

Incidentally, such things will also help address Solanis' (?) concern that nothing about the consume idea properly stops people from escaping anyway. And if you get this done via a brumetower change, maybe the ah....very loud concerns that have been repeatedly aired about it will finally stop.

Here's my idea for movement hinder too:

Brumetower ver. 2 - 3p* and 2* shadows, stops all physical movement (not elevation movement), drops when the Night user moves away, when shadows fade, or when the Night user dies. Cannot be used in a room with bonds dropped. Lasts 3* minutes.

Note = asterisk (*) means subject to change.

This is why I suggested eating other shadow parts, ie. the legs. You consume the shadow's legs, and it can hinder movement in some way.

Xenthos:

Why are we giving spiritsingers aeon? :o

Because we need aeon!! :)

While consume sounds neat I have to point out that 2.5s eq vs 4s, 8s, and higher cures means easy stacking. The cost would have to be high and it would not be hard to set up several sips in a row to fail then move onto other things.

This is presumptuous and I can agree to that, but the eq makes it far too easy to stack against these I think.

Witchs blood I dislike for several reasons, mainly the destruction of curing and always having a kill condition going, if you go to cure anything you have to cure something else because of its damage.

Aeonfield++ is fair, since most of hallifax is celest++ anyway. Just limit the aeonfield thing.

If you want barrier even on a timer, 7p+ and should explore the limitations more.

Those are fast thoughts I am sure I missed some things.

I liked the old, room aeon but move caster or target kills it. Add delays and shows too is fine.

Malarious:
most of hallifax is celest++ anyway.

Don't remind me :(

Re: brumetower version 2 , having a high power version is kinda useless for 1v1 (which is what we're addressing primarily, isn't it ?? ) because of 8p toadcurse. If you could tumble through it I think it would still be moderately useful, not sure how I feel about the proposed version (i.e. I'd be scared T.T).

Sojiro:

Oh, I was pretty serious that the very last idea would be to just return room choke, but have it show a line on ql and give it a delay between casting and effect to give everyone a chance to prepare themselves accordingly.

IMO - Room-wide choke, line on ql, (3?4?) delay upon casting before taking effect, has to be targetted at a person - consumes 3p upon casting, fails if target is not in the room at the end of the (3?4?) second delay. Make it so magical shields cannot exist under its effect, so that if people pre-choke, you can counter by being in the next room and kicking the stuffings through them with range skills. Numbers up for tweaking.

EDIT: Forgot to add - drops/cancels if target/caster separate for x seconds, like the current one does.

Hi,

Here is a different proposal for a choke replacement.

I've taken into account the issues with the consume idea, namely the lack of cure hindering and its complication and integrated it with Asmodea's ideas about consuming different bodyparts.

I'm going to call it Shadow Manipulation. The basic theme is manipulating your victim's shadow in order to induce debilitating effects on him.

The skill works as follows:

Note: Asterisks (*) mean that the actual number may be subject to change.

-It requires that the victim's shadow be stolen.

-Once a victim's shadow has been stolen, you can induce a variety of effects on the victim, paying the appropriate power/shadows in order to do so.

-This will work off a special "shadow balance", which is about 4s* in between effects. It will require balance/equilibrium, but will consume neither.

-Syntax: SHADOWDANCE MANIPULATE (target) (effect)

-Here is a preliminary list of effects (s = shadow, p = power):

*Sleep (You croon softly at a shadow) - 1s
*Fractured skull (You flick a shadow's forehead) - 1s
*Blackout (You cover a shadow's face) - 1p, 2s
*Bleed (You rake your nails along its torso) - 1p, 3s
*Mana drain (You pierce its head) - 3s
*Addiction (You massage its throat) - 1s
*Throatlock (You throttle it roughly) - 1p, 2s
*Leglock (You grasp its legs tightly) - 1p, 2s

Changes to Skills:
-Cauldrons will now only hold up to 25* shadows
-The Nightkiss aura will now allow a Night user to gather 1* shadow per use of the following attacks: Nightkiss, Shadowgaze, Scourge, Lash
-Stolen shadows will need to have a standardized decay of 5* minutes.
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The point of this ability is to afford every Shadowdancer tertiary the chance to do a sleeplock, the staple of wiccan offense. This is achieved by allowing for sleepcloud/double hex for hexen and sleepcloud/shadow sleep/sleep enchant for healers and astrologers. Once the sleeplock has been properly set, the Night user is free to continue sleeping the victim while at the same time slowly building up afflictions that will eventually lead him to be toaded. Note that all of the afflictions serve a purpose yet have cures which are easily managed by anyone with a decent system.

While it may be argued that some of the effects are very powerful, I would like to argue that the power cost, the shadows cost, and the standardized balance all serve to ensure that the afflictions are not overwhelming until the right circumstances. None of the afflictions by themselves are overly powerful. Furthermore, the purpose of aeon is to delay cures and waking enough to build enough afflictions for the toadcurse. It is not possible to replicate such a strong effect without utilizing other equally strong effects.

1v1:
Ideally, in my head, wiccan combat will center around this mechanic in the following way: sleeplock -> shadow aff/tertiary ability or sleep -> repeat until you're set up -> kill

The above exactly replicates the how wiccans currently kill today, which is the entire point of suggesting a replacement mechanic for choke.

Groups:
Given the stolen shadow requirement, only one Night user may manipulate your shadow at any one time. The effect should be minimal, given that almost all of the afflictions that manipulations deal have cures. The effect on group combat should not be anything substantial compared to any other class.

Possible changes to consider:
-Shadows in cauldrons should naturally decay at a rate of 2* shadows per IC day.
-Require an athame for the more powerful abilities in order to prevent warriors from benefiting from additional firepower they may not need.

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Why I like this over consume:
1. It is even more simple
2. It involves no new afflictions
3. It does not need a change to any Night ability aside from its resource gathering capabilities
4. It does not have the potential to lock out cures quickly and effectively in group combat
5. It actually hinders curing
6. It helps -all- possible Shadowdancer tertiaries

Why this is less effective than consume:
1. It also helps warriors, which may not need the help as much as Shadowdancers.

BOLD TEXT YOU SHOULD READ: I know the shadow/power cost for certain abilities may be wonky. So does the cauldron limit. Those are the parts that need the most work. It's the idea that matters!

LongNight costs 25 shadows to cast...maybe up the cauldron limit to 50?

Also, I'll have to test again to see exactly what cures are stopped by aurawarp and the time intervals when curing is allowed (specifically, I'm looking at the fracturedskull part, because hard-to-cure pseudo-stupidity can be a bit OP). Otherwise, I approve of the idea. Let's have others theorycraft. Go go.

Ebonguard.

Ebonguard don't need additional firepower really. While I have no issue with giving them the more minor stuff like sleep and fracturedskull, they definitely do not need blackout.

Furthermore, while EG may have some trouble actively gathering shadows with Night attacks (given that they won't really use them in pvp compared to SD's), I'd argue that they should be focusing more on knighthood anyway.

Which is why I'm really liking that idea of certain abilities requiring an athame to use. Like how Nightkiss/Moonburst is stronger with one than without one.

Very strong. Arguably it has to be to have any chance of being effective without aeon. Got some qualms with numbers and list of possible affs but I could probably save that for later.

This skill reads more like from a tert than a primary skillset, and a skill that would form the majority of a skillset (something akin to hexes/runes where the abilities you learn in the skillset are the affs you give) especially if given its own balance.

I haven't completely thought it through, but what do you think about this:

Remove the special shadow balance. Have the skills you listed (Nightkiss, Shadowgaze, Scourge, Lash) instead grant charges/shreds of shadow which you then expend to give the affs (examples being what you posted). Requires eq/bal but doesn't consume it, and the charges stack to a max of 3. This way it becomes less of a 'free aff of your choice every x seconds' like a super strong ent. This would also limit its helpfulness to Ebonguard.Then again some of the suggested affs wouldn't work out if multiple shadow affs could be given at the same time (e.g. throat/leg lock), unless you made some cost more charges instead (and then power probably wouldn't need to be an extra cost to some).

I dunno, I just don't particularly like the idea of having this extra balance that is basically divorced from bal/eq.

Solanis:
.

I dunno, I just don't particularly like the idea of having this extra balance that is basically divorced from bal/eq.

I don't think Shuyin mentioned there being a seperate balance. It would still consume eq to use, unless I read it all wrong.

Otherwise, I like the idea mostly, maybe just some of the costs need adjusting.

Actually, he pretty much explicitly said there was a separate balance and didn't take balance/EQ.

-This will work off a special "shadow balance", which is about 4s* in between effects. It will require balance/equilibrium, but will consume neither.