Yay, gold star.

Jayden:

Reminds me of vodun.....

I can see the comparison, except this version doesn't seem immensely broken.

Yes, but this version doesn't have Lolbliterate ;) (nor the ranged stuff, too!)

With that said, the shadowcharges idea sounds better than the shadow balance one. Go go.

And yes, the Brumetower / Flight / Penumbra reports are independent of this Choke one. I threw it out there for everyone to see since, now that Night isn't as room-centric anymore, maybe we could exchange some of the room-hinder things in Night for other stuff.

Would the charges on the shadow reset if they have to re-steal? (like how soulless/hermits clear if you ind/outd)

Yes.

If for some reason you lose the shadow by it decaying or whatever, you'll have to rebuild charges.

RE: Vodun - I was told of the similarities, and after looking it up, I may have noted down some of the abilities they had but without the hilariously OP ones like an instakill.

Omg version 2 coming right away.

This is a revised version of the Shadow Manipulation idea, after taking into account feedback.

These are the main changes compared to the first version:
1. Cauldrons are no longer being messed with.
2. The shadow balance has been removed.
3. Manipulation now costs umbral energy, which is gathered through Night attacks
4. Umbral energy is capped at 5*.
5. Costs for the afflictions have been tweaked.

If there are any other comments or feedback that can be given regarding the mechanics of the idea, feel free to chime in!

Otherwise, if you guys feel this is solid, I'd like to focus the discussion regarding the actual affs and costs, especially in relation to the umbral limit.

P.S. I'd also be down with a better word for "shadow charges" than umbra. I'm not very clever.

-------------------------------------------------------

Shadow Manipulation (Version 2).

The basic theme is manipulating your victim's shadow in order to induce debilitating effects on him.

The skill works as follows:

Note: Asterisks (*) mean that the actual number may be subject to change.

-First, it requires that the victim's shadow be stolen (Night Steal). A Night user can only steal/possess one shadow at any given time.

-Next, umbral energy must be gathered from the victim (henceforth known as "umbras"*) in order to empower the shadow enough to harm the victim.

-A shadow can only hold up to 5* umbras at any given time.

-Umbras are gathered through the use of various Night-related abilities, which are:
*Lash, Scourge, Nightkiss, Nightgaze

Note: Umbras can only be gathered from a victim if you possess his or her shadow.

-Once a victim's shadow has been stolen, you can induce a variety of effects on the victim, as long as you pay the corresponding number of umbras to do so. Syntax: SHADOWDANCE MANIPULATE (target) (effect)

-Here is a preliminary list of effects, sorted by cost:

1 umbra:
*Sleep, Mana drain, Fractured skull, Addiction

2 umbras:
*Bleed, Throatlock, Leglock

3 umbras:
*Blackout, Stun

Note: Any manipulation that costs more than 1 umbra requires a wiccan athame to be wielded.

-The manipulation command requires both balance and equilibrium, but consumes neither when used. The only cost lies with the umbras.

-Harming the victim with this will use up the the corresponding amount of umbras, which means that it will need to be gathered once more.

Changes to Skills:
-The following attacks will generate 1 umbra per use: Nightkiss, Nightgaze, Scourge, Lash
-Stolen shadows will need to have a standardized decay of 10* minutes.
-Night users may only steal/possess one shadow of a person at a time.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The point of this ability is to afford every Shadowdancer tertiary the chance to do a sleeplock, the staple of wiccan offense. This is achieved by allowing for sleepcloud/double hex for hexen and sleepcloud/manipulate sleep/sleep enchant for healers and astrologers. Once the sleeplock has been properly set, the Night user is free to continue sleeping the victim while at the same time slowly building up afflictions that will eventually lead him to be toaded. Note that all of the afflictions serve a purpose yet have cures which are easily managed by anyone with a decent system.

While it may be argued that some of the effects are very powerful, I would like to argue that the umbral cost and the gathering mechanism serve to ensure that the afflictions are not overwhelming until the right circumstances. It is not possible to quickly gather enough umbras to dispatch your opponent with ease. None of the afflictions by themselves are overly powerful. The purpose of aeon is to delay cures and waking enough to build enough afflictions for the toadcurse. It is not possible to replicate such a strong effect without utilizing other equally strong effects.

1v1:
Ideally, in my head, wiccan combat will center around this mechanic in the following way: sleeplock -> manipulate aff/tertiary ability or sleep -> gather umbras -> repeat until you're set up -> kill

The above exactly replicates the how wiccans currently kill today, which is the entire point of suggesting a replacement mechanic for choke.

Groups:
Given the stolen shadow requirement, only one Night user may manipulate your shadow at any one time. The effect should be minimal, given that almost all of the afflictions that manipulations deal have cures. The effect on group combat should not be anything substantial compared to any other class.

Furthermore, umbras cannot be "pre-built" against a victim prior to engaging them in combat due to the shadow requirement. Also, none of the strongest effects can be immediately unleashed without spending at least 6+ seconds stealing and then building umbras.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why I like this over consume:
1. It is even more simple
2. It involves no new afflictions
3. It does not overly change the mechanics of any Night ability/
4. It does not have the potential to lock out cures quickly in group combat
5. It actually hinders curing
6. It helps -all- possible Shadowdancer tertiaries

BOLD TEXT YOU SHOULD READ: I know the umbral cost for certain abilities, the umbral limit itself, and the list of afflictions may be wonky. Those are the parts that need the most work. It's the idea that matters!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok time for the BREAK THIS thing: And umbras, pah, call it umbris when renaming, it flows better!

1 umbra:
*Sleep, Mana drain, Fractured skull, Addiction
-How much mana drain?
-Why fractured skull, do not see purpose other than arnica stupidity?
-Addiction? This is hexable, it is not bad per se.. but this does not feel all that Glommy to me.

2 umbras:
*Bleed, Throatlock, Leglock
- How much bleeding
-Throatlock might be a rather powerful effect for an eq-less skill when used with hexes.

3 umbras:
*Blackout, Stun
- How long is the blackout?
- How long is the stun?

Pin down some of the numbers for durations especially, tell me some of these affs can be changed to be more nightish?

Ok I said I wanted to break it lets see what I can come up with on no sleep at 6:30 am....
- Is there a timer to use shadows similar to scorpionSpit? Or can I Blackout, addiction, sleep all at once?
- If lash gives umbris then couldnt I lash > mana drain + lash > mana drain + lash until you die?
- Throatlock seems like a rather powerful affliction. Sleeplock > throatlock + impatience > paralysis > lash to build up for more throatlock.
- As a warrior can use the stun to get in a good swing past parry/stance if prepped while doing a high power aff. Example: I use stun and insta tendon you, 3s stun and 4s regen? I own you now. Specially if we buff warriors.
- Could I build up a bunch as a BM then start training with some of these to increase the base DPS but adding mana damage or bleeding?

Ok my mind is melting, night night.

Let's sub "umbras" with "Rites of Gloaming (rites for short)", or "Threads of Binding (threads for short)", or "Veils of the Eclipse (veils for short)". All of them are ado with our mythos, and all of them let us build onto them easily enough as far as haughty SD roleplay goes. I'm good with them all, so take your pick!

Are we going to be able to give stolen shadows to other Nightusers?

Shadow Tags

Veto. :P

Are we going to be able to give stolen shadows to other Nightusers?

I would say sure; I don't really see how it could be a problem.

Really like the new version.

Sounds ok, tell us when we get to quibble about the numbers. :)

Addiction is kinda gross when it doesn't cost eq/bal and we have pooka.

Druken:

Let's sub "umbras" with "Rites of Gloaming (rites for short)", or "Threads of Binding (threads for short)", or "Veils of the Eclipse (veils for short)". All of them are ado with our mythos, and all of them let us build onto them easily enough as far as haughty SD roleplay goes. I'm good with them all, so take your pick!

Threads would make more thematic sense. I'll make it that on the next revision.

Solanis:

Sounds ok, tell us when we get to quibble about the numbers. :)

Addiction is kinda gross when it doesn't cost eq/bal and we have pooka.

You can go ahead now.

---------------------------------------

RE: the actual affs - I'm not really 100% dead set on all the afflictions aside from bleed, mana, sleep, and blackout. The rest, I padded out with afflictions that I feel would be useful to help keep the mana drain.

So feel free to suggest alternate affs that would be useful.

Malarious:

Ok time for the BREAK THIS thing: And umbras, pah, call it umbris when renaming, it flows better!

1 umbra:
*Sleep, Mana drain, Fractured skull, Addiction
-How much mana drain?
-Why fractured skull, do not see purpose other than arnica stupidity?
-Addiction? This is hexable, it is not bad per se.. but this does not feel all that Glommy to me.

2 umbras:
*Bleed, Throatlock, Leglock
- How much bleeding
-Throatlock might be a rather powerful effect for an eq-less skill when used with hexes.

3 umbras:
*Blackout, Stun
- How long is the blackout?
- How long is the stun?

Pin down some of the numbers for durations especially, tell me some of these affs can be changed to be more nightish?

Ok I said I wanted to break it lets see what I can come up with on no sleep at 6:30 am....
- Is there a timer to use shadows similar to scorpionSpit? Or can I Blackout, addiction, sleep all at once?
- If lash gives umbris then couldnt I lash > mana drain + lash > mana drain + lash until you die?
- Throatlock seems like a rather powerful affliction. Sleeplock > throatlock + impatience > paralysis > lash to build up for more throatlock.
- As a warrior can use the stun to get in a good swing past parry/stance if prepped while doing a high power aff. Example: I use stun and insta tendon you, 3s stun and 4s regen? I own you now. Specially if we buff warriors.
- Could I build up a bunch as a BM then start training with some of these to increase the base DPS but adding mana damage or bleeding?

Ok my mind is melting, night night.

This is just a rough estimation, don't take it too seriously.

Mana drain - let's say 250-300, I want this to help land the toad once the enemy is locked up and the SD can start drain/lash spamming to get the toad. I want it to help, but not be too much.

Fracturedskull - I picked this to help put some cure denial in that stacks with stupidity. Not dead set on this.

Addiction - Used to double sip balance to help get them behind in mana. I'm not sure what you mean by a Glom aff, any aff can be a Glom aff IMO.

Bleed - Used to put pressure on the enemy once they're locked up a bit by forcing them to clot and use up mana. Let's say 500 since it's worth 2 points.

Throatlock - Used to help stack on focus pressure along with leglock and paralysis from barghest (?). Also to help stop sip mana.

Blackout - Used to slide in affs to help delay the opponent curing it, so it needs to be long enough to allow a fully burst of 2 manipulation affs and a Night user action, so let's say 3 seconds.

Stun - Same as above, but this will probably used more to keep the opponent asleep by making them unable to enter the wake command immediately. So let's also say 3 seconds.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Suggestions on other affs would be welcomed.

I was told anorexia and confusion would be good too, if there is a preference for those over some others currently in the list.

Addiction? Doesn't that actually just make your potion balance last twice as long, and make you absorb more sips? I wasn't aware it ticked at all. The problem that he's talking about is doing "addiction, order Danla sip bromides, lash", so that you have an 8 second (?) period of time where you can't sip mana. You may be thinking of gluttony here?

EDIT: A three second stun is outrageous, also. Throatlock is a bit much, imo, but way more workable.

Nuts, let me test with a TP, I might have gotten my IRE games mixed around.

------------------------

Malarious:

Ok I said I wanted to break it lets see what I can come up with on no sleep at 6:30 am....
- Is there a timer to use shadows similar to scorpionSpit? Or can I Blackout, addiction, sleep all at once?
- If lash gives umbris then couldnt I lash > mana drain + lash > mana drain + lash until you die?
- Throatlock seems like a rather powerful affliction. Sleeplock > throatlock + impatience > paralysis > lash to build up for more throatlock.
- As a warrior can use the stun to get in a good swing past parry/stance if prepped while doing a high power aff. Example: I use stun and insta tendon you, 3s stun and 4s regen? I own you now. Specially if we buff warriors.
- Could I build up a bunch as a BM then start training with some of these to increase the base DPS but adding mana damage or bleeding?

-You can blackout/aff/aff at the most, then you need to spend 5 balances doing night attacks (at the very fastest) before you can do it all again.

-You can, but in my head, if you're not doing any hindering at all, this won't be very effective, since the enemy can just beat on you or shield or scroll/sparkle/beast

-That's kind of point of the throatlock, especially if there's nothing that can delay your cure like aeon. Not convinced that may be broken.

-Warriors are locked out of 2+ umbris abilities, given the athame req.

-Can't add bleed, but can add mana, but if we get this right, the mana will be negligible.

RE: Addiction - yeah, it doubles sip balance. That's even better!

I know there Solanis brought it up too, but is there anything that prevents you from just sparkle/scroll/beasting that away until the balance comes back? Or shielding?

IIRC, TP' can do this already by forcing sip then putting addiction on them, and that's not a popular tactic from what I can see.

RE: Stun - 3s is used to slide in afflictions and give time for enemy to get behind. I'm basing this around the logic that if hallucination/aff/aff and trip/aff/aff is fine, this should be too. It might not be 3s though, so however long those are.

In fact, in my opinion, the nearest equivalent to this is bardquisition by SS, which involves spirit build up, then unleash, a similar mechanic. And that lasts way more than 3 seconds.

No, there wouldn't really be any way to avoid eating the double penalty, which also applies to sipping health, and (I think) to applying it. I'm not really a fan of that, because they can do it at the same time as a forced sip on something useless (Bromides). The only reason it's not popular for TP's is that their dominate takes 2p, and the trick eats 2/3rds of their offense, where this wouldn't have either effect, really?


EDIT: Also, I'm not sure why you need anything long enough to 'slip in' anything else. Unless something major has changed, you can still do these affs as a free balance right before your action, yeah? Also, the SS freeze takes something on the order of 10 balances to perform.

Yes, but TP's can do it repeatedly.

What if we moved addiction to 2 pts. then. That would reduce its spammability a bit.

And again, you need this to slip other affs in because there is no way to reliably delay cures which was the niche that aeon filled. That's the point of all the suggestions of throatlock, addiction, and so forth.

By the way, freeze takes 5 actions, then the unleash, but no power. At least that's what Xiel's site tells me.