Today, I was told to think outside of the box when it came to fighting as a solo bard. But my problem is I have a huge box called maestoso. I'm really confused, and I really don't know what else I can be doing as a Harbinger with Glamours. I guess I pretty much suck, and the only victories I could brag about were with people who were either inexperienced or just lacked any duking time with bards in general, which is understandable since bard-combatants are pretty rare. Everyone eventually got the gist it and I'm really, really obsolete now. So would anyone mind pumping me with creativity juice on how I can approach things more differently?

From what I see, bardic combat's pretty linear:

-Maestoso, stay in it
-aurics one by one
-then DiscordantChord
-minorsixth

This in itself pretty much sucks. DiscordantChord is horrible in its current state for solo. I'm basically draining away all the ego and mana that I can use to damage my opponent with. As a Harbinger, I have better mileage with manabarbs, given that I have CrowCaw - our whore-to-death bleeding'n'stun skill - but that's pretty flawed and it really doesn't work with everyone once they wise up.

My problem with the DChord set-up is that it's so power costly and so easy to reset all over again. Gust us out since we have such small movement resistance. Melt the firewall. Maybe cudgel us up into the trees. Druids can disable a bard's offense so easily by lifting us up into the air, shielding down on the ground and having us dissolve the shield before being tangle-tossed up into the trees where the passives do hell on us.

I've been told that Music and my Specialization alone can kill, Acrobatics ups your survivability, and your tertiary's just for utility. I've tried using Glamours. It's too power intensive. If ever I do manage to build up for a full Discordant, I don't have power for it. People have told me chasing both faeleaf and earwort is a waste of time. Should I be upkeeping my patterns as well, then? And... do I seriously ever use ColourBurst?

I guess I'm just being a whiney, confused, extremely frustrated, and stomach-flu plagued person here. But I'm running out of ideas, and any help in forms of ideas, or just telling me how I'm basically doing it wrong or being a baby here would kinda be appreciated.

-Again, this is in terms of solo combat. But if you have anything to throw in for groups, that works too.

First some notes:

You should upkeep your patterns and touch nothing else active in glamours, except as a novelty for a bit of fun. Possibly throw up a maelstrom, if you think there is a chance of fighting in the room with someone. Nothing else in glamours is even remotely worth the time, tbh. It all costs too much power (from flare) to bother with.

And yes, once you get what's going on with CrowCaw, it's much easier to get out of/cure it, all you've got to do is hold down your shield button and the string is broken.

I also giggle at druid passives playing hell with you. The ones that are getting you are paralysis... and paralysis. Greentea is your friend here! It's true that you can't rely on pfifth (solo) with druids, but that's pretty true of all classes, and that one second of time where you are off elevation can break your offense fairly well. Of course, the came can be said of anyone shielding intelligently. All it takes is one shield juuust before earache is going to drop, and you're out of luck. You should still pfifth though, it gives you resistance to forced movement.

The problem with Dchord is that in group combat it's significantly easier to pull off, and is significantly more dangerous. A stun of that length paired with damage is pretty killer, and you can whip it off faster then Inqui. If you have another bard in the group, they can do theirs after the stun resistances of yours wears off. Or even during the stun, for more damage, as the aurics don't go away when dchord hits. That's why I don't really support making it significantly easier/faster/cheaper to do, truth be told.

I'm not exactly sure what to suggest though, besides managing aurics well. You've just got to be able to brute force through people's defenses as a Harbinger (or a bard period, really) and smack them down when fighting one on one. Though I love glamours for how much you can inconvenience the other side, you may want to think about ecology? I hate ecology for druids, and would never (ever ever) suggest that a druid take it, but I hear it's okay for bards? If for nothing but herbbane/batbane. You could also throw down a desert or forest smudge before starting a crowcaw train, I guess.

Oh, that reminds me. Check how much damage your shadowchord does. You may want to go for sensitivity with shadowchord instead of msixth after dchord.

One thing that kinda really needs to happen is some sort of thirdperson statement of what aurics have been cured when the target is in octave. I know that I'll probably never be dchorded because I've got two active cures that can cure aurics through octave, and many other guilds have passive cures (even worse) that do the same. Without knowing that this is happening, you get thrown out up to 6p on a worthless dchord. Thornlash kind of has the same problem there (and others besides), in that you have no real way of keeping track, and screwing up totally resets you.

Yeah, I normally use Shadowchord unless they're Totem Users. And yeah, that's my one problem with aurics. The moment they eat earwort, then horehound, I'm up to guesswork if something was cured, if so, what? And if allheale was used. Groups is pretty easy. I really just Pfifth and damage.

Though my question is what else can I do, if anything, since I think and my approach to bard combat is hardcore linear. x+y=z.

I got tons of kills as a Harbinger, even when I didn't have Crowcaw. Octave/manabarbs/egovice then minorsixth, it kills in groups and solo. Given, it's harder solo as people basicly know what you're doing, but if you fifth and keep them blanknoted, you can usually get the kill. Noted I did run into the occasional guster or people with so little mana I couldn't kill them period, in which case dchord does help if you can stick it.

I used to be glamours as well, hated every single second of it. I basicly used illusoryself, maze and maelstrom and that's it. If I had the credits I would of switched to ecology the second they made flare a 2 power skill. (Retarded idea) Glamours doesn't have enough utility for a harbinger to make it worth it and you don't have enough affliction passives to stack them. I would of gone for the banes, they are good for people who rely on aurics.

Also, in response to the above. As far as I'm aware and last fought with it, elevation change does not break octave. In which case, I'm confused as to what the problem is. Druids were always less of a problem for me and more of an annoyance, unless you get sap/stomped. For squishy people, your double mana loss is all you need to get a quick kill. Three to four minorsixths and most people are dead, you don't even need to bother with dchord.

More flare.

As a faeling, you will be dealing some -nice- damage if you hit with a double indigo on colourburst. (Mine does around 3k) Couple this with major second (switch between the two) for some easy minor sixth kills.

People really underestimate glamours. Sure, it needs work for bards, but there is some -very- nice affliction output to be had with it.

Daereth:

I got tons of kills as a Harbinger, even when I didn't have Crowcaw. Octave/manabarbs/egovice then minorsixth, it kills in groups and solo. Given, it's harder solo as people basicly know what you're doing, but if you fifth and keep them blanknoted, you can usually get the kill. Noted I did run into the occasional guster or people with so little mana I couldn't kill them period, in which case dchord does help if you can stick it.

I used to be glamours as well, hated every single second of it. I basicly used illusoryself, maze and maelstrom and that's it. If I had the credits I would of switched to ecology the second they made flare a 2 power skill. (Retarded idea) Glamours doesn't have enough utility for a harbinger to make it worth it and you don't have enough affliction passives to stack them. I would of gone for the banes, they are good for people who rely on aurics.

Also, in response to the above. As far as I'm aware and last fought with it, elevation change does not break octave. In which case, I'm confused as to what the problem is. Druids were always less of a problem for me and more of an annoyance, unless you get sap/stomped. For squishy people, your double mana loss is all you need to get a quick kill. Three to four minorsixths and most people are dead, you don't even need to bother with dchord.

Going to throw this one out there... you're silly. You aren't going to kill someone with pure msixth damage and pfifth, you just aren't. The people who you can do that to are not the sorts of people he's talking about having trouble with here. I'm not really sure what else to say to that but NO. I have a pretty hefty electrocudgel and an even heftier claws when I'm being a shaman, but that isn't enough to kill anyone worth killing, and my claws comes with a nice 2 second stun attached .Those are the sorts of people who you squish with passives.

Maze isn't particularly good. All of the similar alternatives (fleshstone, bubble) work far better and easier. You need two people to pull of maze anyways, it's in no way a single combat skill, which is what he's talking about here.

If you aren't having trouble with druids, it's a stupid druid. The thing is that octave dosn't break, but pfifth no longer holds themso they will just walk on out of the room and be fine. Stagstomp also isn't really the best way to kill as HS druid anymore, as a side note. At least not as a neutral balance race, or at top tier. All of the top name systems out there handle concentrate so fast... It's a nice add on to other locking stuff, but if you're spending all your time doing that, you'll get outpaced!

Enyalida:
bubble

ohohohohohohohohohohoho

Enyalida:
Going to throw this one out there... you're silly. You aren't going to kill someone with pure msixth damage and pfifth, you just aren't. The people who you can do that to are not the sorts of people he's talking about having trouble with here. I'm not really sure what else to say to that but NO. I have a pretty hefty electrocudgel and an even heftier claws when I'm being a shaman, but that isn't enough to kill anyone worth killing, and my claws comes with a nice 2 second stun attached .Those are the sorts of people who you squish with passives.

Maze isn't particularly good. All of the similar alternatives (fleshstone, bubble) work far better and easier. You need two people to pull of maze anyways, it's in no way a single combat skill, which is what he's talking about here.

If you aren't having trouble with druids, it's a stupid druid. The thing is that octave dosn't break, but pfifth no longer holds themso they will just walk on out of the room and be fine. Stagstomp also isn't really the best way to kill as HS druid anymore, as a side note. At least not as a neutral balance race, or at top tier. All of the top name systems out there handle concentrate so fast... It's a nice add on to other locking stuff, but if you're spending all your time doing that, you'll get outpaced!

My bad, you're right, I never killed anyone. I must of been dreaming the entire 2 years or so I was a Harbinger doing basicly, just that and working fine with it. I bow to your infinite knowledge of my outer workings and ask for your humble guidance as to what I will do with the rest of my life. Because CLEARLY, I'm not doing anything right.

Secondly, your claws are op, let's not compare the 2k damage and stun with -anything-.

Maze is a utility skill for group combat to get people like Shuyin out of the way. I never said it could kill anyone. You also don't need two people to pull it off, flare once and throw maze out. Works 95% of the time, maybe you're just slow?

I don't see what's stopping anyone from fifthing again. Just fight in the trees, I don't have a problem curing sap, does anyone else? I will not claim to have an abundance of knowledge on how druids kill, only my own experience. Though I would question as to wether you actually have a harbinger or even a bard for that matter.. cause I'm not seeing any logic.

Nicholo:

Yeah, I normally use Shadowchord unless they're Totem Users. And yeah, that's my one problem with aurics. The moment they eat earwort, then horehound, I'm up to guesswork if something was cured, if so,

Thankfully, your system will let you know what you're missing if you attempt a minorsixth.

Daereth:

My bad, you're right, I never killed anyone. I must of been dreaming the entire 2 years or so I was a Harbinger doing basicly, just that and working fine with it. I bow to your infinite knowledge of my outer workings and ask for your humble guidance as to what I will do with the rest of my life. Because CLEARLY, I'm not doing anything right.

Secondly, your claws are op, let's not compare the 2k damage and stun with -anything-.

Maze is a utility skill for group combat to get people like Shuyin out of the way. I never said it could kill anyone. You also don't need two people to pull it off, flare once and throw maze out. Works 95% of the time, maybe you're just slow?

I don't see what's stopping anyone from fifthing again. Just fight in the trees, I don't have a problem curing sap, does anyone else? I will not claim to have an abundance of knowledge on how druids kill, only my own experience. Though I would question as to wether you actually have a harbinger or even a bard for that matter.. cause I'm not seeing any logic.

Honey, perhaps I was dreaming during my time as a Harbinger, and while reading this thread about single combat. Or while being a druid. Let's seeee~

Oh, I'm sure you killed people doing that. They just aren't the sorts of people that he's worried about, or that he has any problems killing, possibly even via that method, I've seen him do it! It isn't a viable strategy against anyone of a similar tier (I'd say lower-high tier in this instance) to you though. There are people I can kill just with my demesne passives (which are pretty weak compared to some of the other melders), but they are lowbies.

Yes, my claws are a bit op! That reinforces my point that even when using an overpowered attack (claws) you won't be damage killing anyone worth the effort. All of his stated methods should work fine and dandy against someone squishy enough to go down to straight damage from aurics. Anyone who is squish enough to die to that would die to dchord+msixth.

Maze isn't a single combat skill, fiiirst. Second, you can't really get it off with any surety solo. You can flare just fine, but then you won't have power to maze before they can eat faeleaf and have blindness up! Even if you do manage to do this on someone solo, you've just stalled the solo fight, which is counterproductive! Unlike other skills that serve to eject someone from the field (I'll leave out bubble this time, though it's only downside is that it moves the person around? Am I missing something there), it has a very high chance of failure unless you are seeing. Unless Harbingers have magically become herbstacking fiends, you can throw back up sight within ~3 seconds, which is cutting it very close for maze. You could in theory do this if you weren't being hindered at all by the other side, but eh. Also, it can just be dispelled, bwahaha.

I'm not really seeing the logic to your statements. The four ways (Hartstone) druids have of flinging you into the trees are as follows: Raise cudgel, treetoss, treelife, seize. Of these four ways, only three can be done when you are on the ground with a target (cudgel, treetoss, treelife), and one is passive (treelife).
-Raise cudgel puts the caster off balance longer then the stun on the bard, but it has the upside that they bard may resist the movement, which will result in being separated. If the bard does not climb up fast enough, the druid escapes. This is suboptimal and nearly never happens.
-Treelife is passive, has 100% hit chance, is dependable, and always will be timed to hit with swarm which paralyzes. That means that you suddenly are away from the druid (which means they can walk off), and are stopped from moving back down for at least 1 second. That's 1 second that the druid can walk, leap, or tumble out of the room.
-Treetoss is a beast action that has 100% move chance, and can be done... on beast balance. This means that the druid can do something like this: beast order treetoss bard;leap dir, or can even do this: beast order treetoss bard;tumble dir.

Either of those last two ones guarantees that the druid can move away from the bard, escaping the bard's octave and resetting their combat.

Let's say that the druid dosn't want to escape octave! They can then wait for a few seconds before their demesne will tic and do treetoss;shield. This means that to continue your offense, you'll probably have to get through both shield AND earwort, giving them enough time to cure out of what you've given them (aurics). After you climb down and dissolve their shield away with blanknote, then their demesne hits, you are pulled away again for a minimum of 1 second, and they shield again! Tada!

Butbut, fight in the trees you say! Treebane, shove. All the same things happen again!

None of that is to say that Druids are un-bard-able. I've been killed by some clever bards in the past, but I've been around for a while and know a lot of the bardy tricks and how to avoid them. I know what it looks like when a Harbinger is about to start spamming crowcaw, and I quickly head that off. I know what it looks like when someone is about to go for a dchord, and I green if need be.

@Eritheyl that's assuming they cured egobarbs or manavice, which may not be the case.

Enyalida:

@Eritheyl that's assuming they cured egobarbs or manavice, which may not be the case.

Well, do they have a set curing priority?

Not to my knowledge, it's random. Otherwise that problem wouldn't have cropped up in the first place! It's why sipping allheale is so nasty. You only cure one, but they don't know which, so you've got to start all over. Granted, you should be able to get all four up and dchord within two blanknotes, optimally.

Enyalida:
Rather large blob of text

You can kill basicly anyone in group combat, purely with minorsixth damage. You can also kill pretty much anyone that isn't a warrior with minorsixth damage. You just have to persist, when they heal reapply the affliction they cured and start again.(It's usually in the order you afflicted it, or so I've noticed anyway) It's a process, but that's really all Harbingers got since Dchord works the same way. I never really had to use Crowcaw, though I'm sure it would of made my life easier.

This is not meant to say you can kill high teir combatants this way one on one. But you don't have many options, if Crowcaw isn't working, sorry buddy, you're out of luck. The strategy is thus; minorsixth, Dchord or Crowcaw. If these arn't working, you arn't going to kill them. Gust is your kryptonite, if they spam it? Chances are you arn't going to kill them.

Also, I have no idea why you started going off about maze. You must of read my comment wrong, because I was complaining about glamours while saying maze was one of the only three skills I ever used. I was not saying I ever used it in single combat, anywhere in this thread, you will not find that said by me.

As to your comment however, the first flare strips faeleaf, it does not cost power.. I thought you had a bard? Maze after the strip and it works every time, balance back before they can get sixthsense again. Dispelling it still afflicts the person coming out of the maze, effect still granted. Thank you.

The rather large chunk of information about hartstone druids.. well, I can't say I read the entire thing, I got distracted by something shiny. However, I'm sure you're rather adpt at running away and tossing people out of the trees. I assumed that was a given. You however are basicly stating it's impossible, it's not, I have done it before, to several druids in the past who were just as good at what they do as you are. Long time ago, true, but still not impossible.

We must keep in mind the restrictions we are working with. Harbingers have a very restricted way of getting kills, which is exclusively damage type or bleeding. You arn't going to kill someone with god like ability to defend against everything you do, this is just the reality you'll have to live with.

Enyalida:

The problem with Dchord is that in group combat it's significantly easier to pull off, and is significantly more dangerous. A stun of that length paired with damage is pretty killer, and you can whip it off faster then Inqui. If you have another bard in the group, they can do theirs after the stun resistances of yours wears off. Or even during the stun, for more damage, as the aurics don't go away when dchord hits. That's why I don't really support making it significantly easier/faster/cheaper to do, truth be told.

Just thought I'd toss this out there - from some testing I did a while back, the aurics only don't go away if the caster of the dchord is holding the octave.

There's very little chance to kill someone high tier as a bard right now. Maybe some envoy reports will fix that.

If you're glamours, just keep up your passive eq loss and put up maelstrom.

It's also really easy to maze people, trust me, I'd know.

As a Necroscream user, and a tarotist, my strategy is vastly different from yours. I rarely bother with DisCord unless my opponent is incompetent. Generally I prefer to spend my balances keeping manabards/egovice up and a combination of QueensLament, DespairWeb, P5th, SobbingDread, Hangedman, and Aeon to keep my opponent in the room (preferably one that I have already Contagioned), and inflicting a reasonable amount of health pressure (through bleeding+manabarbs) using TortureSong while I build up plague affs (through SickeningPlague and WrathfulCanticle; difficult to cure, thanks to BlackDeath), drunkeness (using Darkmaster+Palemalt or Absinthe), and hunger (also SickeningPlague). Once I have my four-five plague affs, manabards, and egovice up, I tend to try to time a Sensitivitied MinorSecond to line up with CarillionKnell. This is usually enough damage to kill lower health fighers outright, and does enough damage to put many mid-health fighters into killing range. Against high health fighters (or monks, since I have a much harder time hindering them) I tend to rely on bleeding/drunk/hunger attrition to kill or disable them.



I still haven't decided if I like Glamours or Tarot better for combat. Glamours has IllusorySelf, which drastically increases my survivability, and a number of mental aff passives (in addition to the two my song inflicts every tick) while Tarot has Aeon and Hangedman for better hindering, and Lust to make TaintedLove easier to use.

Umm. Daereth. You can't kill a combatant who is is at all competant in 1v1 by simply M6thing him repeatedly, unless his health is very low and his mana and ego are very high. Even then, trying to damagekill someone without signficant hindering is extremely difficult.

Sojiro:

There's very little chance to kill someone high tier as a bard right now. Maybe some envoy reports will fix that.

If you're glamours, just keep up your passive eq loss and put up maelstrom.

It's also really easy to maze people, trust me, I'd know.

Whenever I try to maze people in groups, one of their friends always critiques :(

Arrr.

It helps when you have perceptive friends!

Or the ability to spam messages or omniscience talking.

foolofsound:
Umm. Daereth. You can't kill a combatant who is is at all competant in 1v1 by simply M6thing him repeatedly, unless his health is very low and his mana and ego are very high. Even then, trying to damagekill someone without signficant hindering is extremely difficult.

Yet another person who underestimates the power of double mana loss.

Sojiro:

It's also really easy to maze people, trust me, I'd know.

1 vs 1? Against a competent system. Impossible.

Damned niricol. *brandish*

Also, Daereth. Who are you in game apart from an unranked with 5% my might?

I'd like to see you M6 kill me, heh.