What if all (or just non-flavor) powers were ephemeral, lasting 60 days or so before needing to be replaced?

I don't agree with upping the cost of powers. I'd prefer to see some form of upkeep.

Karma is a nice system. It has a cap. It has decay that is weighted according to how many blessings you have. It is easy to recover and also to maintain the appropriate amount of blessings to correspond with your play time.

I also wouldn't mind "tithing" part of my essence gain towards my order/cult. You could optionally tithe between a fixed range.

I'm against raising the cost because it doesn't fix the current problem: once you have everything you need, there is no further point to essence other than bragging rights and surviving enemy deaths.

I don't see why there needs to be a cap OR increased costs. They're not mutually exclusive, and again, I would hope that the administration has enough sense to realize that when the system is already hard capped (via weights), it's unnecessary to place another cap on it. Balancing around potentiality isn't always a good thing. Potentially, someone could have 20 billion essence, and the only difference between balancing around the 9 people that have >200 million essence and 50 billion is the number of digits.

I don't see why there needs to be a cap OR increased costs. They're not mutually exclusive, and again, I would hope that the administration has enough sense to realize that when the system is already hard capped (via weights), it's unnecessary to place another cap on it. Balancing around potentiality isn't always a good thing. Potentially, someone could have 20 billion essence, and the only difference between balancing around the 9 people that have >200 million essence and 50 billion is the number of digits.

You may not see the reason, but it's pretty clear at this point that they are stating that 'too much essence is a problem'. It is supposed to be a limited resource, and it just isn't that right now, primarily for a small subset of players.

See what happened when there was a perceived issue with too many commodities in the game.

If a bullet needs to be bit, it's better that it be done now, and it's better to do it in such a way that it affects the fewest people possible.

If there's a choice between increased cost and a cap, I'd take the cap in a heartbeat. Balancing costs around 200m+ would seem ridiculous, given that most of us never get even close to those numbers.

Just throwing in that I'm rather fond of the concept behind Xenthos's proposal, allowing for wiggle room on where the precise numbers happen to fall.

Estarra:


I completely disagree. Flavor should not be free and unlimited. I think that would make demigods incredibly boring to have them all the same rather than diverse. Also, there is a certain amount of prestige to having invest in some flavor skills just for the sake of being unique or uncommon which is a benefit in and of itself. (Maybe not everyone will agree and so they won't invest in those flavor skills but I also have no problem with that.)

Again, this may be a fundamental philosophic difference but I have pretty strong feelings on it.

I think this is a philosophical disagreement, but I'll put out my stall more fully one more time.

There should be no mechanical division between playing the game for combat (or just making numbers go up) and RP. If there is a divide, I can only see it growing wider, and at the end of that road there are combatants who only toe the RP line to keep access to their nexus who and resent the do-nothing RPers who keep trying to make them do chores like brushing up on lore and staying in role, and RPers who are at a mechanical disadvantage and who resent the do-nothing combatants who keep trying to make them do chores like ability testing and defending territory. I've seen this happen in Achaea (though without such a large game design prod in that direction), and it really is not a good environment to play in.

I think that flavour toys should definitely cost essence, because that's renewable. My beef is that demiweight is not a renewable resource. Also note here that I'm thinking of powers that are literally without mechanical use: if there's a benefit to be had from something, it should cost weight. This wouldn't lead to blandness in combat builds, providing there were enough use powers to force a decision on how to wring out the most advantage, any more than a choice in teritary skills where there's a clear first choice leads to blandness (see: mages and TK); albeit, with the current set-up, taking on situational powers is so expensive/unwieldy as to mean that they're just never seen. There also wouldn't be blandness in flavour, because it's all choice this and choice that. Finally, with suitable pricing, there'd be plenty of room for 'prestige' powers - just stick in more flavour trinkets at 100mil essence a piece!

--

On the topic of essence caps: some players like just seeing numbers go up. I'll bet that there are more than a few who play mainly to accrue essence. An essence cap, no matter where it's set, will affect these people and make the game less fun. (I should also note that I don't see the problem with masses of essence lying around in itself. Is the problem that these stockpiles can be immediately sunk on anything new that costs essence?)

Xenthos:

You may not see the reason, but it's pretty clear at this point that they are stating that 'too much essence is a problem'. It is supposed to be a limited resource, and it just isn't that right now, primarily for a small subset of players.

See what happened when there was a perceived issue with too many commodities in the game.

If a bullet needs to be bit, it's better that it be done now, and it's better to do it in such a way that it affects the fewest people possible.

No, I see the reason, I just think it's a poor one. It's basically calling the administration incompetent at balancing effectively.

Why is it a limited resource? It's most definetely an unlimted one, by pure definition. You get it by killing mobs. Mobs respawn, which you can kill again. The cycle doesn't end.

No, I see the reason, I just think it's a poor one. It's basically calling the administration incompetent at balancing effectively.

Why is it a limited resource? It's most definetely an unlimted one, by pure definition. You get it by killing mobs. Mobs respawn, which you can kill again. The cycle doesn't end.

And then you are supposed to spend it on things (death and powers).

Just like commodities are technically an unlimited resource (just wait while they build up), but you're supposed to buy and use them on craftables.

Edit: I'd much rather see a cap than what was done with commodities.

Reposted from the other thread, because I feel it is important. Sorry if you've already read the following:

I sincerely hope that 50 is the baseline essence that everyone will start with, for this very reason, and then weight is added to that as essence increases. When I read it, in fact, I just assumed that would be the case, because to do otherwise seems like a pointless teeth-kick to us plebians.

Remember when the original "essence shop" went in? A good friend of mine went basically dormant/semi-active, as he had just gotten demigod after years of playing, and almost immediately lost all the benefits he had worked to gain. Relatively recently, he's gotten back in to the game and is working on piecing together his powers.

If a change like this goes in? It will be the last change all over again. "Surprise, you won't be taking those powers you thought you had, and might even be losing what you managed to put together!" It will feel, regardless of the intent, that the Admin hate him and don't want him to have fun.

When putting in a change like this, it is essential not just to ask, "what will the Raz's of the world do?", "what will the people with an essence pile often confused with the population of moderately large nations do?" but "How is this going to impact the morale and feelings of all those people who are in the lower tail of demigod?"

There are plenty of people who love the game, but only bash because they feel they have to. And yes, little benefits can create emotional have tos. Making them re-earn what they already, to their minds, did something they didn't want to in order to get is disheartening and obnoxious. And completely unnecessary.

So, please make 50 weight +divine mana where applicable the base line, and make any increasing weight-essence system take place after that fact!

It seems kind of backwards to me to say we can fix the problem of people having more essence than they have powers to spend on by limiting the amount of essence we have. In fact, it doesn't even solve the problem, as unless you put the cap at something ridiculously low the problem will exist. Also, some people may be holding onto their essence because they eventually want to be part of the special snowflakes, which requires more essence investment.

In my opinion, the problem isn't so much that there aren't enough things to spend essence on, but that these things are inaccessible to most people who have reached demigod. There are only three ways right now to even have access to more things that can be purchased by essence, you convince your god to make you their avatar and give you a cult, you convince your org to put millions of power into raising you as a VA, or you win Ascension outright. All three of these things have either hard or soft caps, meaning the majority of people are left feeling they are missing out when a select few have so much more to play with. That also brings up another thing. You either get the base demigod stuff and nothing more, or you get a whole heap more to play with. There is no middle ground.

If the numbers are available:
What's the median amount of essence that people have?
What's the average amount of essence that people have?
What's the average amount of essence that people have without the top nine (potential) outliers that are over 200 million?
With the current essence cost of skills, I'm motivated to work towards the most expensive skill that I want, secondtrade. I have a busy real life, and classes start again for me in two weeks. When I do play Lusternia, I also RP and do guild work a lot. I'm motivated- but it's honestly not something I expect to achieve for a couple months, if not more. I'm asking about the numbers of what essence people as a whole have because 200+ million is way beyond anything I'm ever going to build up. Raising essence costs to account for a few people with that much essence would be very frustrating.Edited to fix typo.

Xenthos:

And then you are supposed to spend it on things (death and powers).

Just like commodities are technically an unlimited resource (just wait while they build up), but you're supposed to buy and use them on craftables.

Edit: I'd much rather see a cap than what was done with commodities.

There are uses for essence, yes, but it's still an unlimited resource. No matter how many powers you buy or how many times you die, you can go back and get more essence.

I don't want what was done to commodities to be done to essence either, but I think rather than doing damage control, we should be vocal and say that there is no need for either a cap or increased costs.

Here is my proposal, rooted largely in what others have already said:

Part 1: Put in an essence hard cap:

What this will do:

• It will incentivize people at or near the cap to continually spend essence on temporary powers.
  
• People who like to hoard essence will continue to do so, either in order to maintain their powers, or to recover from the powers they have purchased.
  
• What is a good cap? Ask people like Xenthos, or Raz, or the other people who know where all that essence came from and what it took to get there.
  

Part 2: Add/give access to new powers, but make them purchaseable ONLY as temporary powers:


What this will do:

• Shiney new neat things will require constant upkeep and essence.
  
• Arguably, a sign of status as much as minor benefits. People respond to this!
  
• Nothing added that will be a "MUST HAVE"!
  
• Will incentivize essence spending at the top levels, as well as among lower essence level people who want to play with a new toy.
  

Part 3: Please, please, please, do NOT, for the love of decency, kick existing powers, or existing purchased powers/holders, lower essence people in the teeth again. In other words, leave the existing demigod/demipowers system alone, and just add new stuff to encourage essence spending.

• This was incredibly disheartening last time.
  
• See above post, one of my good friends nearly went inactive over it, and only very recently has gotten back in to things and is trying to climb up.
  
• Leave the entire existing demigod/demipowers framework intact. There is no need to take an axe to it again. You pull the welcome mat out from underneath your customers enough times, they stop walking in the front door.
  
• Just ADD to the existing framework, and make the new stuff impacted by a system designed to encourage essence spending.
  
• In other words, anything that is doable now, should remain so. Anything that is counted on as permanent now, should remain so.
  

And, I'm not being dramatic here, just honest. While I don't regret the thousands I have spent on Lusternia for a second, because I've loved the game, if I wind up having to now repeatedly buy what I have permanent now just to keep it, I will seriously start casting about for something less maddening and less prone to "SURPRISE, things suck more now!" incidents. Once was enough with the initial demigod review. I have absolutely no desire in any way, shape or form to have to upkeep my stat increases.


Even moreso, because some classes "require" the stat increases more than others.

Xenthos:

You may not see the reason, but it's pretty clear at this point that they are stating that 'too much essence is a problem'. It is supposed to be a limited resource, and it just isn't that right now, primarily for a small subset of players.

See what happened when there was a perceived issue with too many commodities in the game.

If a bullet needs to be bit, it's better that it be done now, and it's better to do it in such a way that it affects the fewest people possible.

Yes, well. In the same way that 'too many comms' were a problem, and that wasn't a solution that actually was effective in doing what it intended to do. I really feel that if high essence piles are a problem, the real issue is why people have such stockpiles, and nothing to spend it on. We shouldn't turn around and say 'nope, we're just going to remove what you've earned', instead of actually providing something worth spending it on...


EDIT: I really should read all the way through before commention, I got ninja'd hard. I agree with opposing sentiments...

Enyalida:


Yes, well. In the same way that 'too many comms' were a problem, and that wasn't a solution that actually was effective in doing what it intended to do. I really feel that if high essence piles are a problem, the real issue is why people have such stockpiles, and nothing to spend it on. We shouldn't turn around and say 'nope, we're just going to remove what you've earned', instead of actually providing something worth spending it on...

That's also why another fundamental part of this is adding in new powers to spend that essence on prior to implementing a cap, instead of having it vanish into the void.

Rainydays:

Here is my proposal, rooted largely in what others have already said:

Part 1: Put in an essence hard cap:

What this will do:

• It will incentivize people at or near the cap to continually spend essence on temporary powers.
  
• People who like to hoard essence will continue to do so, either in order to maintain their powers, or to recover from the powers they have purchased.
  
• What is a good cap? Ask people like Xenthos, or Raz, or the other people who know where all that essence came from and what it took to get there.
  

What it will really do:
-Drop people above the cap and punish them for earning it
-People who can't buy powers now will still complain about them costing so much, and those who want powers badly enough will push to earn them
-Change nothing about balance since weights remain the limiter on what can be permamently active
-Change nothing about how the normal demigod has so much less to buy and use compared to an ascendant

I'm wondering if people would agree that the purchasable Demigod Stat increases are practically mandatory, and therefor almost everyone has them?

If so, simply giving us back the +1 to all Stats at Demi, would free up a good deal of weight for a lot of people, thereby allowing them to purchase other things they like that are less "Well there is ~27 weight spent on something I'm forced to get to compete." That may alleviate the desire to increase the current available weight for regular Demigods.

On the extreme opposite of things, maybe we should make Demigod just lvl 100, and you can buy some RP and flavor powers. No combat incentives what so ever. That way it would be a lot harder to make the case that you have to be Demigod to compete in combat. I may just be exasperated, but I thought someone should at least bring it up.

Ixion:



What it will really do:
-Drop people above the cap and punish them for earning it
-People who can't buy powers now will still complain about them costing so much, and those who want powers badly enough will push to earn them
-Change nothing about balance since weights remain the limiter on what can be permamently active
-Change nothing about how the normal demigod has so much less to buy and use compared to an ascendant

Oh, come on. Just spend that essence on the other things that are going to be implemented. You don't actually lose anything (since you get the things you'd have had to bash up that essence for anyways).

That's just a bit of an over-reaction.

If a cap was implemented, then maybe those over that new cap keep their extra essence, but can gain no more until they go under it.

We would only be able to spend that essence if we actually have the weight to get it. Which we don't. So if you want to throw in a cap and extra powers, you better hope they also put in the (increasing weight based on essence level) idea too.

I'm agreeing with Ixion here, though I understand it's supposed to be implemented along with the other features. By itself, it's pretty counterproductive.