How often are you even setting up melds these days, Saran? Honestly the only time set-up is a significant hindrance is if you're getting jumped out of nowhere and don't even have terrain down, and personally, I never go bashing off-plane or in enemy territory without at least melding a few rooms around the area entrance for watch and to run to. It's really not a big enough issue to be worrying about.

@Enyalida's Darkseed: Like I said about allergies, I'm really not a fan of the idea of building affliction only cured by leaving. We don't need to add more attrition combat, really. My experience with sleep attrition just taught me that's it's just frustrating in practice. D:

Estarra:

Herb Curse - Druid can spit an herb at a target, does very short blackout and random affliction for 3p. For 5 minutes, any time target eats the herb that was spit, has an allergic reaction (combined with allergy?), chance of herb not working. Can only be susceptible to one herb at a time, another spit with another herb overrides previous spit (if same herb, refreshes timer).

Fungal Breath - Druid breathes fungal cloud at target, which disorients target, making it difficult to leave the room and increases herbal balance. Works with allergy?

How much of a herb balance increase?

Lehki:

How often are you even setting up melds these days, Saran? Honestly the only time set-up is a significant hindrance is if you're getting jumped out of nowhere and don't even have terrain down, and personally, I never go bashing off-plane or in enemy territory without at least melding a few rooms around the area entrance for watch and to run to. It's really not a big enough issue to be worrying about.

@Enyalida's Darkseed: Like I said about allergies, I'm really not a fan of the idea of building affliction only cured by leaving. We don't need to add more attrition combat, really. My experience with sleep attrition just taught me that's it's just frustrating in practice. D:

This is fair, but the majority of the times that I do actually set up a meld is in response to raids or for a spar so time for me is something that I keep in mind. That and I don't seem to get jumped that often, possibly due to low population during the times that I am able to log in.

What are your ideas for actually addressing what is offered in this thread? I think you are too hung up on that allergy is an incurable affliction, for the most part it seems that the affliction itself does not actually do much other than acting as a marker which increases the effect of other abilities. It could be the opposite, a defence that the druid gains over time in combat while retaining the same effect and it seems like people may have less issue with it even though it would be more powerful.

I would say give it a cure that we could manage to outpace through some active means. I guess melancholic or liniment sort of makes sense for helping against allergies. Don't really know what'd cure seeds growing in you, like in Enyalida's idea, but we could pick something.

I really don't see why people would have less of an issue with that. If it was something that had to be actively built up in regards to a specific target, that's really just the same thing. If you could build it up without fighting or on any target, well than that's just ridiculous, could walk into that fight with your uber charged allergy aura, or whatever it'll be called.

Lehki:

I would say give it a cure that we could manage to outpace through some active means. I guess melancholic or liniment sort of makes sense for helping against allergies. Don't really know what'd cure seeds growing in you, like in Enyalida's idea, but we could pick something.

I really don't see why people would have less of an issue with that. If it was something that had to be actively built up in regards to a specific target, that's really just the same thing. If you could build it up without fighting or on any target, well than that's just ridiculous, could walk into that fight with your uber charged allergy aura, or whatever it'll be called.

So something like deathmark in buildup?

Raeri:

So something like deathmark in buildup?

I'm going to have to admit that I actually have no idea how much effort it takes to build-up Deathmark, but I think not something immensely difficult to build since we're seems aiming for it to not give direct access to an instant kill, rather giving us the means to then set up a kill, which I think is what Deathmark is like?

Yes, like deathmark. Part of the issue (IMO) with druids is that unlike most of the other archetypes (if not all) there is no buildup to druidry. This a problem both for the druid and for the victim: The druid has no real way ahead of time to help ensure that their power and time investment is going to pay off, unless the druid is a dreamweaver. There are a few things you can do, but it comes down to luck a lot of the time. The victim similarly has no chance to avoid a good druid, especially if their system is sub-par or has some flaw. No time to gtfo as appropriate or manage an offense.

Adding in SOME mechanic that allows the druid to make sap more viable (possibly with a sap nerf, if used without this mechanic) by utilizing a buildup mechanism would be awesome.

@Estarra I really like a lot of the growing plants ideas also, but they seem a lot more like non-core abilities.

I like Estarra's ideas personally, too bad they can't just add all of them. :P

Though she did say she's not against adding an ability or two along with tweaks, so I'm just gonna throw out...

Allergies - New druid mechanic, let's say doing roughly Enyalida's Darkseed suggestion, slowing curative balances more per level, and affecting more

Shock - 3p, active means to increase a target's allergy level. Maybe another effect(probably 4-5p if so), like a hit of off balance, or dmg+sprawl, or something, stronger effect at higher allergy levels? ((Did you sleep is pretty muh

Intoxicating Flower - Like Estarra's idea, but change it to a delayed summon that's faster depending on target's allergy level? (I wonder how that makes sense thematically. More allergic, so more disoriented by the flower's pollen, so harder to resist? )

With all of this, I think a druid would still need Sap to pull off the kill, but we could get away with adjusting it more, and the work is in getting the target to that high allergy level, so I don't feel so bad if Sap is strong with this.

Was writing more but suddenly remembered I have to leave for work like now so I'll edit it later or something.

Lehki:

I like Estarra's ideas personally, too bad they can't just add all of them. :P

Though she did say she's not against adding an ability or two along with tweaks, so I'm just gonna throw out...

Allergies - New druid mechanic, let's say doing roughly Enyalida's Darkseed suggestion, slowing curative balances more per level, and affecting more

Shock - 3p, active means to increase a target's allergy level. Maybe another effect(probably 4-5p if so), like a hit of off balance, or dmg+sprawl, or something, stronger effect at higher allergy levels? ((Did you sleep is pretty muh

Intoxicating Flower - Like Estarra's idea, but change it to a delayed summon that's faster depending on target's allergy level? (I wonder how that makes sense thematically. More allergic, so more disoriented by the flower's pollen, so harder to resist? )

With all of this, I think a druid would still need Sap to pull off the kill, but we could get away with adjusting it more, and the work is in getting the target to that high allergy level, so I don't feel so bad if Sap is strong with this.

Was writing more but suddenly remembered I have to leave for work like now so I'll edit it later or something.

Intoxicating flower is in demesne only right? otherwise it is convoke sans the 10p pre-requisite.

Demesne Summons were removed for a reason, I would suggest intoxicating flower be something closer to carcer, perhaps beckon if you are nearby the druid.

AFAIK, druids never actually had demesne summon. That was mages only! Druids had the help of uber-wisp back when it was outrageously hilarious. The suggestion for the flower summon thing is closer to an uber-convoke, but demesne limited, only to one location in the demesne, and only on a single target (at least how I see it being implimented).

It wouldn't be an ability to let you summon someone instantly from 30 rooms away without any previous engagement. Instead, you'd have to be in the room you'd get summoned to for at least some time, and the druid would have had to engage you fully before they'd be able to summon you back. So, it's actually a lot closer to a cairnlargo summon without deafness requirement (and without things like octave).

While I am intrigued by Enyalida's darkseed idea, I have a few concerns.

Whenever we're fighting on Faethorn/Astral/Nil/whatever, people don't stay still in our melds and demesnes are easily broken (especially if there is more than two enemy melders present for the fight). Setting something up like Enyalida describes may only work in defense situations - where you usually have time to set yourself up, and have primary control over an area. And in that event, what is to stop would-be raiders from just going 'oh, they have such and such a thing set up, let's go raid another territory and let them waste their power'?

I'm not keen on a mechanic that takes a long time to prepare, and then pull off. Druids feel slow already. But if this idea can be worked to be a little less cumbersome, sure, it sounds really interesting. Maybe I just need some more time to think about how it could work.

My main concerns with whatever we implement (instead of, or with a nerf to sap):

• The skill/s shouldn't be restricted to the meld holder. Often, the Blacktalon have three - five druids in any given fight, and Sidd or Vadi are usually the main meld holders, leaving the others restricted to support roles (replanting saplings, cudgel, sap, scarab, vines, terts). I'd like to see 'support druids' getting more flexibility in what they can do offensively, and if possible, have the skill/s stack with more than one druid present.
  

• The skill/s needs to be able to restrict movement or balance or curing in some way. We have a hard time keeping our enemies in our meld in order to pull off any meld-specific kill. The meld is usually there to pester (and anyone with a decent system can weather it), so we can pull of something easier - the haegl storm, then swoop or support those who toad, using our totem and terts, for example.
  

• The skill/s shouldn't take too much time to set up. Setting up a meld takes enough time/power. When our enemy changes the field - that power is lost.
  

I like Estarra's idea of causing an 'Intoxicating Flower' to grow in a location. But perhaps it could have a similar effect to Gravity, where the enemy has a hard time leaving the location of the flower (which is cured by either chopping/mulching the flower). I don't think it should completely restrict exiting like PerfectFifth, though, just make it slower to do so. 2-3p to bring it in line with PerfectFifth?

I love the idea of having a vines-covered corpse as a result of a druidry kill.

So it seems we can agree that an abilty to help keep opponents from running would be a good idea, yeah? I'd just like to point the ability we do have, Briarwalls, doesn't actually stop or slow people from leaving a room just prones for a second after they leave, which I feel is inferior to anything that'll actually keep them in the room with you even a second longer.

I had rolled with the summoning flower idea since it seemed pretty unique, and like Enyalida said, is more limited than old demesne summon. But for something with less set up, something like the fungal breath idea. Hit an enemy, now that person has the effect tied to them. Either a carcer or gravity like effect, lasts 10 seconds or so, or maybe till they manage to move away from the druid? So like a pfifth that doesn't always work, but doesn't have a reliable deafness escape.

I like Lehki's twists on the ideas presented, so maybe we can go off that. Something that stops the enemy from running away would be great especially if you want to keep them sapped.

I agree that whatever mechanic you employ, it shouldn't take forever to set up. There's already meld-setting and weather changing to take into account.

I intend to submit something by the end of next week, so maybe we can decide on a direction and just run there.

Lehki:

So it seems we can agree that an abilty to help keep opponents from running would be a good idea, yeah? I'd just like to point the ability we do have, Briarwalls, doesn't actually stop or slow people from leaving a room just prones for a second after they leave, which I feel is inferior to anything that'll actually keep them in the room with you even a second longer.

I had rolled with the summoning flower idea since it seemed pretty unique, and like Enyalida said, is more limited than old demesne summon. But for something with less set up, something like the fungal breath idea. Hit an enemy, now that person has the effect tied to them. Either a carcer or gravity like effect, lasts 10 seconds or so, or maybe till they manage to move away from the druid? So like a pfifth that doesn't always work, but doesn't have a reliable deafness escape.

What about adding in something like a hekoskeri-esque effect on briarwalls or something to help slow people's tumbling out of demesne thing or at least make them think twice about just running haphazardly away?

Another thought would be that whatever the mechanic that ends up going in, it shouldn't be overly power-intensive (especially to build allergy/shock levels, if we're going by that - powerfree things like lich coldtouch to raise darkmark levels, cloudcoil, etc to build would probably be preferable, since I really don't think a druid would have a lot of power to spare during combat as it is).

Also, what's the actual kill condition we're aiming to build around here? I really like the theme of both Estarra''s allergyflower idea - if hitting max allergy level opened up a path to an insta (aka burns allowing cremate), I think it would work nicely (so you're not just hindering for hindering's sake, but it also puts you closer to a kill condition).

I don't think it should be restricted to meld either, but some way of allowing multiple druids (who are NOT in their meld/terrains) to use the mechanic to be helpful and progress towards a kill would be great. Or restricted to elevation (I'm looking at you, brumetower).

So, I'm a fan of a skill(s) focused around an allergy mechanic disruptive of eq or balance as it builds, possibly accentuated by similar afflictions (asthma, scabies, pox, sunallergy/burns? etc), or by sap (either making effects more pronounced or simply instaing if sufficient level reached). Death by lightningbug/wasp stings after a certain point!? Druidry (skillset) could really use an actual doable insta to work towards (thornlash could see some tweaks too, now than I think about it).

A bit rambly, but tossing stuff out there~

I really don't know what more to say on the topic. Honestly still unsure on the idea's presented, even my own, but sitting around brainstorming by myself hasn't produced any more than what I've added already.

@raeri: Personally I'm against the idea of disrupting eq/balance as the main focus. I've never had fun dealing with having stacked balance losses against me.

Hi,

This is my version of the druid revamp, I spent about an hour thinking this up with the following philosophy in mind:
1. Sap and thornrend should not be deleted, simply altered
2. The new effect should help land druidry's kill method: thornrend
3. Sap should be repurposed/downgraded to something that will aid in thornrending, but not be overly debilitating on its own.

So in short, I want to keep both sap and thornrend, but I want to alter both mechanics to be a bit more realistic while at the same time introducing new effects to help with it. I hope this idea accomplishes this.

I understand that there are 2 camps within the druid world: those who think sap is fine and those who want it gone. I opted to compromise and kept sap as an idea but changed its effect. This seems like the best solution.

Constructive feedback needed and appreciated. This is my first draft. I intend to revise this as I go.

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Druid Revamp:

NOTE: Any number presented here is subject to change pending discussion. Nothing is set in stone.

Thornlash/Thornrend:
-Increase the number of lashes needed to thornrend a target by 1, total lashes needed = 5 (4 limbs and head)
-Allow victims to be thornlashed while sapped once more.
-Alter POINT/CAST IGNITE to only burn 1 thornlash off the victim per use.

Sap:
-Cause POINT CLEANSE (person) to fail on sapped victims if the druid who cast the sap is in the room (ground or tree elevation only).
-Reduce the power cost to 2p and remove the tree elevation requirement.
-Alter sap's effect: have it extend the writhing time from entanglements (vines, thornlashes, etc), give a rubble-like delay to moving out of the room.
-Alter sap so that if you are ignited while sapped, the sap hardens, adding an additional writhe cure before you can cleanse the sap off. You need to writhe out of the hardened sap, then cleanse off the sticky inner sap.

New Afflicton:
-Allergies, it is a mechanic that builds up over time / actively, up to 10-15 levels. The higher the allergic level, the more often/worse its effects get. The cure is to leave the druid's presence for 5 seconds. Every 5 seconds, your allergy level goes down by 1.

Allergy's Effects:
1. Extends the writhing time of entanglements (vines, thornlashes, etc)
2. Knocks the victim prone, possibly offbalance as well (violent sneezing that knocks you over)
3. Get afflicted by the mucous affliction, which has a % chance to prone you if you try to leave the room (have a runny nose)
4. Lessens your poison shrugging capabilities

*Ideally, 5 allergy levels + sapped is barely enough to guarantee a thornrend, 10 allergies alone should be about the same as the former.

New Skills:
-Seedcloud, an active move (costs 1p) that increments a target's allergy level by 1 and briefly throws them off balance.
-Intoxicating Flower, an active move (costs 3p and requires forest terrain) that summons a victim back with the druid so long as they have 5+ allergic levels. Possibly have it decrease allergy levels once successful.
-Shock, an active move (costs 5p) that increases the time it takes before an allergy level fades from the victim (1.5x more = 7.5s before an allergy level fades). Also increases the victim's allergy level by 2-3.

Alterations To Other Skills:
-Alter Pollen, this meld effect will also increase a victim's allergy level if they are currently suffering from allergies.
-Alter Spores, same change as Pollen.

*Ideally, one effect will be blocked by protection scroll, the other will not. I need ideas on which effects will accomplish this.

Other Ideas To Consider:
-Have the sap affliction prevent the victim from tumbling.
-Meld effect that does different afflictions depending on the victim's allergy level.
-Skill that causes cleanse/scrub cures to fail. Possibly dependent on allergy level.
-Scale allergy levels to its effects. level 1-2 is writhe time only, 3-4 is writhe and less poison resistance, 5-6 mucous, 7-10 is offbalance + prone, as an example.
-Change Shock to just knock people unconscious depending on allergy level. Might need to change some damage types around.

Concerns/Unsure:
-Sap giving rubble effect
-Offbalance on allergy sneeze
-Decrease allergy levels on Intoxicating Flower
-Time-based cure of allergies

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With this idea, a druid's main kill method changes.

Instead of timing and maintaining sap and then slowly cudgelling them to death, they have to build allergy levels to extend the victim's writhe time long enough to land a thornrend. Other effects like new-sap will help with this.

Ideally, in my head, it becomes possible to land the thornrend along the 5-7 allergy level mark if the victim is also sapped, it will take the entire 10-15 levels of allergies without sap.

Generally speaking, I'm a bit unsure about the opening volley to this new offense, so I'm gonna have to ask the theorycrafters to focus a bit there. But I'd also like to know if the proposed changes are enough to make druids useful in and out of meld.

For the purposes of this idea, assume that every time I say possible (idea), it's gonna happen.

I really like this idea, Shu!

It solves a lot of problems that we have right now, and seems to give the Druidry skillset more synergy.

Our main kill is thornlash/rend, which is cured by writhing. Right now, that's far too easy to prevent to be a viable kill method even in groups of four druids or more, let alone on your own (in your meld, trying your hardest). This adds a bunch of ways we can work towards holding our target still and pulling off a primary skillset kill.

Agree that sap should be reworked to achieve this.

Allergies being passive and actively raised is great. Love that it centres around being with the druid.

La la... nothing more to add at this stage. I just like the whole idea, even if a few skills need to be nutted out still.

One thing I'm concerned about is another 'leave room to cure x' affliction, which I thought was deemed 'not a good mechanic' from the many rants about (current) Night Choke, and to a lesser degree, Harmonics Rubies and Wildarrane Spirits. Shadowdancers get Brumetower/Bonds/Pigwidgeon/Vines to hinder movement, Researchers have that Con-thing/Web, Spiritsingers have PerfectFifth. Druids, from the way the report looks, will get writhe++, tumble immunity, briars, vines, quasi-rubble, all the while allergies kicking in that could offbalance and prone. Throw in paralysis from demesne if you want. A Druid might also do sap -> ignite (to activate doublesap effect). Target escaped? Don't worry, you might be able to pull them back in.

Maybe add an 'active' cure to allergies (one that might stack with other Druid afflictions) on top of the passive fading upon separation. I'm curious, though, how fast the tic is for the passive allergies to build? A level every 12 seconds (like fae), or as fast as demesne effects?

shock seems a bit odd.

Does it increase the recovery time of the next level (little underwhelming) or all (kinda strong)?