Sojiro:

Yes. Part of the plan is for the druid to ignite the victim to harden sap.

You keep sap by building allergies. Passive prone, offbalance from cleansing mucous, longer writhe from vines, etc. Hopefully.

I guess it makes more sense if the hardened sap is intended to be done by the druid... with that I guess I could see it being maintable, maybe. Depending on how long that takes to writhe and if the person is cloaked when they writhed from it. Still not entirely sure, but can't really say with just theorycrafting. /shrug

Also if the sap hardening is intended to be done by the druid, it bugs me that they'd rely on an elemental enchant to do that. Bugs me that I have to rely on one to remove my own briarwalls! Maybe there could be a command for the druid hardening it, but igniting also does it?

Also just igniting, and not blaze ticking maybe? Even though anybody who hasn't cured ablaze would probably deserve it, still seems like a bit much to me

Well, deleting the aeon effect means that you need a different way to hinder curing.

Would you guys prefer keeping the aeon effect? I don't think many actually do.

Sojiro:

Well, deleting the aeon effect means that you need a different way to hinder curing.

Would you guys prefer keeping the aeon effect? I don't think many actually do.

I like your draft and the direction proposed. I think we're just discussing tweaking to make sure druids are actually better off when it goes in, and that the mechanic is sufficient to cause a kill.

Thanks Shuyin for all the time and thought you've put into this. You are truly awesome.

Also, I agree 100% with Raeri above.

Hi,

I'm putting the Druid thread on the fast track. Choo choo. I intend to do this every day so long as I get enough response.

Here's version 2 after taking account the feedback provided so far. More feedback is appreciated

Changes Compared to Version 1:
1. Meld effects which give allergies have been changed to pollen and swarm. Pollen is blocked by protection, Swarm is not.
2. Allergy levels now cure every 10s while in the presence of a druid, every 5s away from them.
3. Allergies now completely cure (all of it) after 10s of leaving melded/forest terrain and being away from the druid.
4. Shock has been changed to cause writhing/cleanse to fail on a % chance based off allergy level.
5. Being ablaze (the effect ticking) also causes sap to harden. Also specified that summer/tipheret will not cure hardened sap.
6. New ability added in to check a victim's allergy level/thornlashes.
7. Removed allergy's proning effect.
8. Reduced sap's eq time.
9. Clarified what stops intoxicating flower.
10. Added improved bleeding/longer writhing/more allergies if the victim is on tree elevation.

I'd like more discussion on Shock. Is this version better? Too powerful? I personally like this version more because now Shock actually helps you land your kill condition a bit easier.

I'd also like more discussion on allergy's effects. I've tentatively removed the proning aspect because shamanism/dreamweaving/ecology can already do that. Plus deathmark, its nearest equivalent, does 3 things, this should probably too. Need more discussion here.

I also understand the issue between lashes vs. allergies. For the purposes of this discussion, I am more in favour of allowing lashes to be useable out of meld than allergies, for what it's worth.

----------------------------------------------------------

Druids (Version 2):

NOTE: Any number presented here is subject to change pending discussion. Nothing is set in stone.

Thornlash/Thornrend:
-Increase the number of lashes needed to thornrend a target by 1, total lashes needed = 5 (4 limbs and head)
-Allow victims to be thornlashed while sapped once more.
-Alter POINT/CAST IGNITE to only burn 1 thornlash off the victim per use.
-Consider having the bleeding from thornrend increase if the victim is currently on tree elevation.
-Consider having the writhing from thornlash extend if the victim is currently on tree elevation.

Sap:
-Cause POINT CLEANSE (person) to fail on sapped victims if the druid who cast the sap is in the room (ground or tree elevation only).
-Reduce the power cost to 2p and remove the tree elevation requirement.
-Reduce sap equilibrium to 3s (currently 4s).
-Alter sap's effect: have it extend the writhing time from entanglements (vines, thornlashes, etc), give a rubble-like delay to moving out of the room.
-Alter sap so that if you are ignited (or the ablaze affliction ticks) while sapped, the sap hardens, adding an additional writhe cure before you can cleanse the sap off. You need to writhe out of the hardened sap, then cleanse off the sticky inner sap. Can't tipheret/summer this.
-Consider having the sap affliction render igniting self useless until cured.

New Afflicton:
-Allergies, it is a mechanic that builds up over time / actively, up to 10-15 levels. The higher the allergic level, the more often/worse its effects get. Allergy levels drop by one level every 10s while in the presence of the druid who afflicted the victim and every 5 seconds when away from that same druid. Allergies completely cure instantly after 10 seconds of being away from a druid -and- forestal terrain/meld.

Allergy's Effects:
1. Extends the writhing time of entanglements (vines, thornlashes, etc)
2. Get afflicted by the mucous affliction, which has a % chance to prone you if you try to leave the room (have a runny nose)
3. Lessens your poison shrugging capabilities

*Ideally, 5 allergy levels + sapped is barely enough to guarantee a thornrend, 10 allergies alone should be about the same as the former.

New Skills:
-Monitor, an ability that shows what your target's current allergy level and number of thornlashes are at. Requires balance/eq, but consumes neither.
-Seedcloud, an active move (costs 1p) that increments a target's allergy level by 1 and briefly throws them off balance. Has a 50%* chance for double the allergy levels if done on a victim at tree level.
-Intoxicating Flower, an active move (costs 3p and requires forest terrain) that summons a victim back with the druid so long as they have 5+ allergic levels. Possibly have it decrease allergy levels (3?) once successful. Stopped by shield/monolith.
-Shock, an active move (costs 5p) that causes cleansing effects and writhing moves to fail (failure will consume a hefty balance) on a % chance based off allergy levels for about 30-45s. Perhaps something like 7.5% chance to fail per allergy level. Once the effect concludes, all allergy levels fade. If done on a victim at tree level, there is a further 10%* chance of failure.

Alterations To Other Skills:
-Alter Pollen, this meld effect will also increase a victim's allergy level if they are currently suffering from allergies. If they are on tree level, there is a 25% for increased allergies.
-Alter Swarm, same change as Pollen.

*Ideally, one effect will be blocked by protection scroll (pollen), the other will not (swarm). Note that this does nothing if you don't already suffer from allergies.

I'm still working on digesting this entire proposal, but the first thing I suggest is getting rid of #2 on the allergy effect list as passive prone in that mix of afflictions is too much.

Edit: Without altering the speed of Sap, this change to its functionality will still not do anything as people will still not regain EQ fast enough to compound its effects, leaving them essentially where they are right now.

Edit2: Is Shock curable? How long does it last? Is there a minimum requirement of allergy levels for shock, or will people just cast Shock as an opener and the target never cures out of it?

I really like it! Some comments:

-Intoxicating Flower, an active move (costs 3p and requires forest terrain) that summons a victim back with the druid so long as they have 5+ allergic levels. Possibly have it decrease allergy levels (3?) once successful.

Allergies completely cure instantly after 10 seconds of being away from a druid -and- forestal terrain/meld.

So we have at most, a 10 second window to re-summon someone that escapes?

Also, these suggestions fit well with Runes, but how will they work with Shamanism? Is the idea to Quicksand + Trance Death + Sap? I can see the Allergy thing working well with Bloom (my new favourite spam skill) but there are going to be a lot of things to keep track of.

How will we monitor the target's allergy levels? Especially as they fade, wear off.

How will this work with stacking druids? Will allergies be limited (eg, not more than 1 level of allergy per x seconds)?

1. Well, 10s is a long enough time to chase/summon, so yes.

2. With shamanism, I think the snowman/golem along with quicksand will help there. Along with bone/claws.

3. Uh, probably an ability to monitor that, I'll add that in now.

4. Well, you can all seedcloud a victim if you really want. So yes, stackable for now unless there's some huge outcry.

Xiel:

I'm still working on digesting this entire proposal, but the first thing I suggest is getting rid of #2 on the allergy effect list as passive prone in that mix of afflictions is too much.

Edit: Without altering the speed of Sap, this change to its functionality will still not do anything as people will still not regain EQ fast enough to compound its effects, leaving them essentially where they are right now.

Edit2: Is Shock curable? How long does it last? Is there a minimum requirement of allergy levels for shock, or will people just cast Shock as an opener and the target never cures out of it?

1. Okay, if we're gonna speed up sap, we can do that.

2. See above.

3. Already fixed, I didn't really flesh that part out as much as I wanted to.

Okay, looking interesting.

I'm a little hesitant now about some of the off balance things, particularly with SeedCloud. If it's spammable, its ability to throw someone off balance might be a little over the top? What do you think about making it affect allergy levels only, perhaps in a random 1-3 manner? I think allergy levels giving off balance and prone would be enough.

Edit: Didn't realise offbal would have a cool off.

I actually removed offbalance/prone from allergies, does this alleviate the concern?

Sojiro:

I actually removed offbalance/prone from allergies, does this alleviate the concern?

Yes. I'll re-read.

I like. One other thing that springs to mind is that it'd be nice if there would be a way to check how many lashes are on the target, if we're keeping the separate thornrend/thornlash syntaxes (Unless the hardened sap makes clotting harder to make use of under max lash thornrends or something, I guess?)

Okay, I've added that to the ability that checks allergy levels.

So that's one passive allergy level per 10sec if they are by a druid+meld effects. So probably want to think about getting out of there after about a minute if you don't think you've got the druid, or things could get rough for you. That what you're aiming for?

Oh also, the druid has to have you enemied for slower curing, yeah? Seems pretty obvious but can't hurt to clarify.

Intoxicating flower, require forest terrain for both the target and the druid?

A simple fix to instantly curing the sap aff is to make it work closer to deathmark, in that you get more than one curing level of it at a go. You'd have to look at how potent it is but hey.

Lehki:

So that's one passive allergy level per 10sec if they are by a druid+meld effects. So probably want to think about getting out of there after about a minute if you don't think you've got the druid, or things could get rough for you. That what you're aiming for?

Oh also, the druid has to have you enemied for slower curing, yeah? Seems pretty obvious but can't hurt to clarify.

Intoxicating flower, require forest terrain for both the target and the druid?

1. Something like that. I'm still trying to iron out the details. Basically, I want allergies to not build on you unless you're getting focused on, so I might need a more elegant solution here. Would it be preferable if the meld effects don't worsen allergies unless you already have some to begin with?

2. Slower curing where at? If you're talking about the meld effects, of course.

3. Yeah. I'll clarify there.

Sojiro:

1. Something like that. I'm still trying to iron out the details. Basically, I want allergies to not build on you unless you're getting focused on, so I might need a more elegant solution here. Would it be preferable if the meld effects don't worsen allergies unless you already have some to begin with?

The way I read your thing I thought that's how you planned it already.

Sojiro:

2. Slower curing where at? If you're talking about the meld effects, of course.

From you earlier post. It said

2. Allergy levels now cure every 10s while in the presence of a druid, every 5s away from them.

I guess I'm just nitpicking over wording. Would be silly if you ran from a druid, back to your group which had a friendly druid, and that druid still slowed your curing.

Yeah, I'll clarify the wording there. Good catch.

A thought occurred to me while I was explaining to a combatant new to Hartstone how bitchin' our stag's Treetoss is because of Treetoss+Sap being so great, when I realized that if admin did go with the current suggestions, it's going to become kind of much less bitchin'.

Though that probably would fall outside the scope of this, something our envoy could look into fixin' afterwards. Just felt like mentioning it, I guess.