Enyalida:

I'm just not seeing the 'trainwreck' thing going on here (with these two skills, at least), thought was definitly put into these skills, which are on the whole far easier to understand then other monk mechanics.

It's more that it's being thrown into this report and not being done through envoys. If these changes had been brought up weeks before and not a few days before the deadline, I'm positive there'd be less dismay. It was a proverbial slap to the face that we had people brainstorming ideas and working on this from the start and despite being the monk experts, our input has either been disregarded or not asked for.

I first heard of the Veil thing when it showed up on this thread, not before. I'm not privy to discussions on Envoy any longer, and frankly, I don't care if it was discussed elsewhere for sometime. It wasn't discussed here. This report isn't something for envoys or anyone else to slap some last-second changes in, but it's being abused that way.

They had been (discussed), and some of them (the wind change at least) were envoy reports that an envoy was already planning on making, and okayed doing it through the report to save time.

I kind of understand the bit about it not being discussed here, but from day 1, it's been said that this decidedly is not a 'forum report', as unfortunate as that may be. I still think it would be awesome if we could get some more dynamic sort of feedback on the entire thing from admins during the process, instead of at the ends where it's fly or die, but it's just not going to happen. All the forum business was just an (fairly required but none-the-less) unnecessary nicety on the part of Shuyin to include people and get ideas.

EDIT: That's not to say that we shouldn't continue to hash things out here. It's just to point out that what is said in these threads isn't in any way binding on the final report in a real way.

Enyalida:

They had been (discussed), and some of them (the wind change at least) were envoy reports that an envoy was already planning on making, and okayed doing it through the report to save time.

I kind of understand the bit about it not being discussed here, but from day 1, it's been said that this decidedly is not a 'forum report', as unfortunate as that may be. I still think it would be awesome if we could get some more dynamic sort of feedback on the entire thing from admins during the process, instead of at the ends where it's fly or die, but it's just not going to happen. All the forum business was just an (fairly required but none-the-less) unnecessary nicety on the part of Shuyin to include people and get ideas.

EDIT: That's not to say that we shouldn't continue to hash things out here. It's just to point out that what is said in these threads isn't in any way binding on the final report in a real way.

Shuyin admitted he didn't know much about monks, and I hate to say it, but this is very much a forum report. One off-comment from Xenthos now threatens to significantly hurt Ninjakari, and a lot of people feel entitled which is affect Shuyin's decisions. And if it weren't a forum report, Shuyin wouldn't have to be pressured into tossing in unnecessary/stupid ideas to appease the masses.

Am I grateful for Shuyin using the forum? No, I'm not. As someone who isn't perfect, he should be seeking out and actively working with the experts, especially as he doesn't grasp the archetype. Using the forum as that means is the most sensible. With that said, I do appreciate his approach, but if you're going to be "open" about it, it contradicts your actions when you slide things in last minute.

This report ought to be fixing things to prevent less work. So far I've been told to either wait a year to fix the consequences of it or to envoy around it. The veil nerf was news to us, and no matter how you frame it, it's still a finger to all monks, Something Monkish, and the initiative to try to balance the archetype.

I think Shuyin has been doing a standup job and the present discussion seems to be devolving down non-productive paths. Everyone knows the report was a non-binding first draft after which you get admin feedback, after which Shuyin can gather more feedback and finalize the report. Rather than pointing fingers and raging against the process, time may be better spent concisely and articulately outlining your suggestions. And, having been in Shuyin's position before, I would humbly submit that the more polite and professional you are, the better received your points will be. Nothing can break down discussions quicker than alienating the person in charge.

Well that's appreciated :)

I never hid my intentions about how I would go about this report. In fact, I specified in my first ever post as coordinator that I will be gathering feedback from the forums, the envoy channel, and whatever other means people use to speak with me. So no, this really isn't just a forum report, it's more like a 'every channel available' report.

It is a fact though that all of our time would be better spent constructively replying to the feedback generated (like what Malarious did, for instance), instead of post after post of how I failed to please x person/group. I am a bit offended by the insinuations that I simply put suggestions in without thought. I take this privilege fairly seriously and I've done my best to ensure that whatever suggestions I put forth before the admin have been carefully considered.

So let's move on please.

Ok! Had a little discussion with a few people and here is what we came up with.

Grapples Sustaining Momentum
- Limit this to kata grapples, that is specializations would not be effected. Most spec grapples have much higher costs.
- As part of the above we are also appending the following idea to prevent 5 second fleeing to be a routine act.

Momentum Buffing Skills
(Example is Kaife- In form: Gain 2 momentum from a form instead of 1. Out: Gives you +1 momentum, to a max of one. Using these also lists you as being under a new target.)
- Allow the momentum increasing skills to be able to get you to momentum 2 instead of just 1. You still only gain 1 momentum each use if not against a target. That is, this should never get you past momentum 2.
- The change is to allow you to reach momentum 2 if used twice, right now it can only reach momentum 1.

When you use kaife on air right now you move to momentum 1 and it is treated as a form on a target, that is your former "target" is wiped. It does NOT maintain momentum, the moment you use it the timer to lose momentum starts. So after recovering from using it you will have about 2-3 seconds before you lose momentum.

Lock
- The ability this has to entirely disable offense in some cases is too powerful. Change lock to no longer stop the use of arms.

My prior points largely stand otherwise, veil, akhoosh, etc etc. I have not waned on most ideas but in an effort to compromise with the community at large we are willing to take the change to grapples in exchange for meeting the two main concerns: Standardizing grapples and Preventing "momentum screwing" which was a concern as well.

Janalon admittedly was sadly not present in this discussion so she may have some other thoughts. I also welcome Janny to ask about it IG if she wants to be clued in first.

None of the monk guilds can use a momentum booster+raze until momentum 3, or with speed until momemtum 4, correct? If so, then that seems fine.

I am still trying to better understand the discussion on Veil. After conducting a Forum and Topic search for the search term "Veil," here is what I found to be the point of origin:

Sojiro:

Okay hi,

Here is a revised report after having discussed things with envoys.

That would make it 5 buffs to 6 nerfs, for those who really like counting.

Sorry. Apparently I don't know how to quote a quote. The post can be found here:
http://forums.luster...ndpost&p=854225

Now, my experience with envoys is to frame changes in the familiar problem solution format. Like the standard forensic debate, points can be argued around 1) the problem is not properly defined, 2) the solution doesn't resolve the problem. In rereading through these threads, I don't believe the problem with Veil is ever properly addressed to justify why the change is warranted. Enyalida comes closest with her explanation:

Enyalida:

I find the capability to become essentially untrackable for what is essentially infinite time to be totally unnecessary, and I think that increasing the duration (Doubling it would be fine even) and introducing a cooldown does not neuter the skill for b&e, but stops it from allowing a single infiltrator to remain uncatchable by any number of people even after they've already been detected.

However, the problem is stated as a personal opinion without any supporting argument. Enyalida, could you please expand your argument to explain why the Stealth trans skills is unnecessary? It would very much appreciated if you could explain how Stealth presents a major game imbalance as defined by Shuyin. This will help me focus my comments regarding Veil. Thank you.

foolofsound:

None of the monk guilds can use a momentum booster+raze until momentum 3, or with speed until momemtum 4, correct? If so, then that seems fine.

The +momentum skills are all two handed. In form you can use them at momentum 2 without a speed mod for 1 power. This assumes you do not need to raze, otherwise add 3 more power to that.

EDIT: I edited the original idea as a request to make it clearer.

Malarious:

Janalon admittedly was sadly not present in this discussion so she may have some other thoughts. I also welcome Janny to ask about it IG if she wants to be clued in first.

Thanks for catching me up. Sounds like I missed out on some great conversations this evening. Good work Mala!

I don't have any substantial issue with the change regarding momentum boosting abilities, which simply raises the cap from mo1 to mo2. If anyone has any concerns with this idea, please make it known.

RE: Veil - the issue is that veil's low cost allows a monk to pretty much stay permanently hidden when doing obnoxious actions like kick-and-run. While it is understood that infiltration is a big part of the skill, being nearly immune to location for 5+ minutes (due to putting up the defense over and over) may be a bit much.

I've thought about it and am willing to consider upping the duration of the skill and the cooldown though, if that's more acceptable.

Sojiro:

I don't have any substantial issue with the change regarding momentum boosting abilities, which simply raises the cap from mo1 to mo2. If anyone has any concerns with this idea, please make it known.

RE: Veil - the issue is that veil's low cost allows a monk to pretty much stay permanently hidden when doing obnoxious actions like kick-and-run. While it is understood that infiltration is a big part of the skill, being nearly immune to location for 5+ minutes (due to putting up the defense over and over) may be a bit much.

I've thought about it and am willing to consider upping the duration of the skill and the cooldown though, if that's more acceptable.

Thanks for the explanation. Now, what's the larger issue? The fact that a 3 minute, 5 power stealth move can be re-raised over and over keeping them hidden from detection. OR the fact that a stealth monk can use the ability to harass others using a kick and run strategy? Let me give you two scenarios.

• *Nolanaj, and trans-stealth, non-com monk does not have the 400 credits to invest into a Gem of Cloaking. She uses Stealth Veil ad infinitum to hunt catacombs and gather power on elemental planes (where she is an enemy against two cities).
  

• *Anilec, an artied out, omni-trans, combatant has guild hopped into stealth monk. During her brief stay, she utilizes every last bit of the guild skills during village revolts, raids, and griefing others by "locking down" ethereal... using Stealth Veil in a kick and run strategy.
  

*** Names changed to protect the identities of the innocent.***


Now. Which user stands to be nerfed? Which one will be more largely affected by a cool down strategy?

I'm largely concerned about the impact Mudlet Mapper plays into the cooldown nerf. With with click of a mouse, someone could WHO or use the ridiculous pigs nose to auto walk to that person in a matter of seconds. Micro seconds if they have properly configured the skill to work with glide, sprint, etc. There is no thinking or strategy involved in catching a stealth monk during cool down.

SO... rather than hash out duration of skill versus cool down, could we at least consider an alternate solution to more narrowly focus more specifically to address how Stealth Veil stands to be abused? For example, a stealth monk cannot raise Veil for two minutes after the last offensive action committed against another player. I'm not so savvy with PVP or conflict mechanics. I'm certain someone else could suggest an idea that more closely aligns with the way Lusternia currently (or at least should) operate.

I had another idea for veil that seemed to be a variation Janalon liked (I did not say preferred but she said it was a good variation).

- Aggressive action causes veil to set its timer to one minute and begin fading. In this way you could never maintain it properly for raids.

However as part of Janalons concerns for those not using it to kick and run, but say is using it to not need a gem. Make the timer only start in an orgs territory, areas such as shallach, catacombs, etc would not cause the timer to set at 60 seconds so bashers and hiders could use it. But if you attack anything that calls for help, or any player it would start.

Bed time now, was last thoughts!

Janalon:

SO... rather than hash out duration of skill versus cool down, could we at least consider an alternate solution to more narrowly focus more specifically to address how Stealth Veil stands to be abused? For example, a stealth monk cannot raise Veil for two minutes after the last offensive action committed against another player. I'm not so savvy with PVP or conflict mechanics. I'm certain someone else could suggest an idea that more closely aligns with the way Lusternia currently (or at least should) operate.

I'm not really sure that the skill is indeed intended to make the gem of cloaking (one of the most powerful utility artifacts) unneeded, and I really contest that having one is needed to avoid ganking while bashing. You can do just fine avoiding a few common gank areas (like catacombs), or you can use things such as stealth awareness and a wise application of enemy lists paired with an escape plan, just like everyone else. The other thing is that veil does not just function like a gem of cloaking. The gem is really only useful for distance 'scrying' via WHO on that plane, once someone seeks you out or is in the same area as you they can track to you as normal. Veil also removes that capability, which is much more powerful. If that was adjusted, sure you can have it up all the time.

I'm not really okay with it only starting to drop after an offensive action against a player (or loyal), partially because one of the bigger issues I have with hit and runs is that forests are far more vunerable to them than compared to cities, and this would fix only a city infinite-veil raiding situation, not a forest one. In a city, you have to attack a denizen (Which will respawn in an hour) or a player (who can fight back, and if killed can only be killed once per RL month). If a player is in their own prime org territory, they will conglute. In a forest, however, you can go about chopping totems and other trees down under veil indefinitely without performing any actions on people or loyals of a territory.

Aggressive action instead makes it less of a problem, but how would that interact with deepcover? You'd have to really game the system to make it work, but it potentially could.

Enyalida:


I'm not really sure that the skill is indeed intended to make the gem of cloaking (one of the most powerful utility artifacts) unneeded, and I really contest that having one is needed to avoid ganking while bashing. You can do just fine avoiding a few common gank areas (like catacombs), or you can use things such as stealth awareness and a wise application of enemy lists paired with an escape plan, just like everyone else. The other thing is that veil does not just function like a gem of cloaking. The gem is really only useful for distance 'scrying' via WHO on that plane, once someone seeks you out or is in the same area as you they can track to you as normal. Veil also removes that capability, which is much more powerful. If that was adjusted, sure you can have it up all the time.

I'm not really okay with it only starting to drop after an offensive action against a player (or loyal), partially because one of the bigger issues I have with hit and runs is that forests are far more vunerable to them than compared to cities, and this would fix only a city infinite-veil raiding situation, not a forest one. In a city, you have to attack a denizen (Which will respawn in an hour) or a player (who can fight back, and if killed can only be killed once per RL month). If a player is in their own prime org territory, they will conglute. In a forest, however, you can go about chopping totems and other trees down under veil indefinitely without performing any actions on people or loyals of a territory.

Aggressive action instead makes it less of a problem, but how would that interact with deepcover? You'd have to really game the system to make it work, but it potentially could.

Uh....you're wrong in a few things on how the skills work. A gem is definitely worse for chopping down trees because that person won't show up on WHO lists, and unless someone has a nose, they're undetectable unless you know that they're there.

Veil does NOT remove you from WHO lists. It makes most forms of scrying impossible, but you can still track off of WHO. That's only problematic when a lot of rooms are named the same thing, but a unique name off of WHO is just as good as a scry.

Veil, for a cost of 5p, lasts 3 minutes giving you invulnerability to all scrying but seek. WHO lists work, and if it doesn't, that person also has a gem.

If that's OP, well, I point out that the person paid 500 credits + a trans skill to earn that capability for three minutes. It definitely does not invalidate the gem, and in quite a few ways, is useless without it.

This is exactly why this topic should have been brought up here and not just to a limited group of people: misinformation makes for bad judgement calls and the skill is not nearly as powerful as it was presented as.

I believe Veil does in fact remove someones location from who. Not 100% sure though.

AquaNeos:

I believe Veil does in fact remove someones location from who. Not 100% sure though.

There was a bug where it removed you from your own who. IE, if you were a monk and you veiled, you'd not see yourself, but others would.

Unless it was secretly changed, veil most certainly doesn't. I've been caught stealing essence on water while veiled due to WHO.

I'm fairly sure it does. 98% sure I've seen people on who like this, with thirdeye up:

Enyalida - the Moonhart Mother Tree
Danla - Danla, the Missing ((The Veil user))
Lehki - the Moonhart Mother Tree

When I talked with Malarious at length about the skill a month or two ago (with him purportedly talking to Janalon about it at the same time) neither of them raised any objection to that bit of info, and the 40% cooldown with increased duration was the most fair (and simple) solution we came to.

Enyalida:

I'm fairly sure it does. 98% sure I've seen people on who like this, with thirdeye up:




When I talked with Malarious at length about the skill a month or two ago (with him purportedly talking to Janalon about it at the same time) neither of them raised any objection to that bit of info, and the 40% cooldown with increased duration was the most fair (and simple) solution we came to.

It's very easy to think it does from our perspective, or at least was. I don't know if the bug ever got fixed or not. And I could be wrong, but if I am, it's because a year ago it didn't do that.

If someone wants to check, we can.

I tested, It appears I was correct.

EDIT: I also bugged it, not a bug.

There really just isn't any way to reliably track to someone who is veiled, which is fully the intent. I'm not alright with that (quite powerful) ability being useable for unlimited amounts of time. Even Janalon and Malarious' suggestions wouldn't work without a cooldown after the skill drops from aggressive action. It drops and you just raise it right back up! Movement control and target tracking are huge (HUGE) parts of how Lusternian combat works, enabling one subset of people to have such an overwhelming advantage, but for unlimited periods of time ( you are totally untrackable by any feasible means, you could in theory set up a seek relay, but you'd need several people seeking to have that work out) is too much. Give it to Stealth users for 5 minutes (which I note should be more than long enough to sneak in, do your buisness and escape, especially with masks) and then have a 150 second cool down. Leave the power cost where it is.