It was either changed or my memory is at fault once again (although I distinctly remember talking with Narsrim about how it would name room names on WHO....). But this is why we talk in the open to get rid of the misinformation :).

It does NOT remove you from WHO list, but it does not give you the room name either.

Yes, veil doesn't remove your name from WHO, but it doesn't give you the room name either if it's up.

RE: Veil - I still think upping the duration/cooldown is the simplest idea, but I understand Janalon's concerns and have no problem with her suggestion, if it'll solve the perceived issue.

Just as a note, chopping down a tree counts as aggressive action against the commune, that is it declares everyone there.

That would start the countdown timer.

The idea is your veil begins to die if you try to fight, can you reraise after the 1 minute? Yes. For 5 power and you will likely lose it again soon because chances are you are either killing something (timer starts) or running (which is no longer a threat).

I am fine with either idea, but to address Janalons concern for non-com use I proposed the 1 minute timer when you attack, preferably with a message. "You strain to veil your aura as your concentration shifts focus." or something.

Are you sure you aren't mixing up attacking the tree with the normal "If you are enemied, you autodeclare everyone" thing that territory status does? There isn't any real way to test this in any extensive manner.

Can you chop trees while graced?

From my knowledge when you chop the tree, its like defiling a shrine, your pk declarations adds everyone. If I walk in and you hit me only you get added to that list.

@Sahmiam: No you cant, attacking trees is aggressive.

What would be lost if the limit was made to be based on actions you can't do while graced?

The only thing I see and potentially worry about is destroying statues and similar things that require you to be stationary for a long period of time. To me...the timer should start for those two instances, because you can't put it back up either.

I'm fine with some sort of timery solution, as long as you couldn't just instantly put back up the veil, and if it was on pretty much.. any aggressive action. You'd want to up the time for that though, to balance it, and would essentialyl end up with a skill worse off than the one I suggested...

Not to mention being forced to kick something to drop the veil and start the cooldown.

Just to restate my suggestion so it doesn't get rolled into what Malarious is proposing.

Three minute defense.
Five power cost.
Able to re-raise at will.

Commit any offensive action (which I assumes includes PVP, attacking org mobs, chopping trees) will drop veil and place you into a two-minute cool down starting from the last offensive action. Could raise the cool down as a compromise, but anything above three-minutes might be too heavy-handed.

Enyalida:

I'm fine with some sort of timery solution, as long as you couldn't just instantly put back up the veil, and if it was on pretty much.. any aggressive action. You'd want to up the time for that though, to balance it, and would essentialyl end up with a skill worse off than the one I suggested...

Just curious why you think it might be worse than the one you suggested.

Five minute defense.
Five power cost.
Two-minute cool down.

Janalon:

Just to restate my suggestion so it doesn't get rolled into what Malarious is proposing.

Three minute defense.
Five power cost.
Able to re-raise at will.

Commit any offensive action (which I assumes includes PVP, attacking org mobs, chopping trees) will drop veil and place you into a two-minute cool down starting from the last offensive action. Could raise the cool down as a compromise, but anything above three-minutes might be too heavy-handed.

This actually gets rid of its use for assassinations too. Dropping on attacking outright. That is why I said starts a timer instead of falls. 1 minute either they die or will get away

Because I'm suggesting the same time out you are, with a longer duration on the skill, but it doesn't drop when you make an offensive action.

Enyalida:

Because I'm suggesting the same time out you are, with a longer duration on the skill, but it doesn't drop when you make an offensive action.

You know. This might come down to asking the question, "What is (or should be) the purpose of the skill."

I would defer to Sahm or Malarious to answer that one.

Really, I think it should drop when you are spotted and tagged by someone, with something like faeriefire, and cost less. We've found you, you are no longer 'stealthed' in that we know you are around and that should be the end of it. I don't think that's really fair though, so it's not anything I'm really suggesting.

The skill seems to be a way to slip in somewhere unnoticed and get back out. It seems like it's intended to actually be limited to 3 minutes, instead of just having you repay a (generally ignorable, if you're using it right) cost to continue to avoid combat. Raising the cost dosn't really seem appropriate, as the 5p cost indicates it should be useable with other things, or in succession. The problem comes in when using it twice runs into using it constantly for 100+ minutes. There are various ways to combat that particular possibility, including per-day or per-month limitations on its use (which are ew), including ways to drop it (such as distort or faeriefire) either permanently of in short bursts, increasing the cost, or creating a cooldown. Of these, the last seems like the fairest and most painless method, especially if paired with an increased power efficiency.

Malarious:

Lock
- The ability this has to entirely disable offense in some cases is too powerful. Change lock to no longer stop the use of arms.

@Mal, what are the benefits of a lock over hold? If you outright "Change lock to no longer stop the use of arms," Would this convert Lock into Hold V2 with the minor exception that Lock has specific mods and enders? I don't see what would increase Lock's +50ka cost over the basic Hold.

WHAT IF it the effects were decreased? FOR EXAMPLE It could have a drunk/stupidity like effect: 33%, 50% or 66% failure on arm (or walking if locked legs) without balance loss? Meaning you would have to spam for the command to go through. OR slight balance loss on that particular limb?

Well lock leg stops walking, its a grapple so as a rule it prevents leaving.

The problem to me is when people rely on the attacks. For instance BM/BC or even a monk. WE cannot readily spam the form to ensure it all hits. Hitting out of order can also screw BM/BC.

Its going to be kind of crappy but for the sake of balance I think Lock can take the hit.

Shuyin, Jan. Are there any issues we are still discussing?

Oh: Veils purpose is to allow you to carry out operations in relative safety. I have used it to quest hidden, raid, track people, and of course with deepcover to enter cities and communes, sometimes to kill people, sometimes to spy. I have used it for alot of things.

I'd rather have veil's time lengthened up to five minutes with a two minute cool down. Plenty of time to do what you need without allowing perma veil.

Having gone through the propper vetting of problem / solution -- where multiple solutions are explored and discussed -- I'm certain Shu will present the appropriate suggestion, and admins implement the solution as they deem fit.

I understand the need for the game to be balanced against the artied out, omni-trans demi combatant... But much of my thinking goes out to also having a game that feels inviting to newbies.

I would also ask for a server side message to inform the stealth monk the Veil cooldown has waned. I figure the code savvy will program as much into their systems, and that feature should be accessible to all.

So... 5 minute Veil. 5 power cost. Two minute cooldown. Message at the end of that time.

5 minute veil 2 minute cooldown. Message when cooldown ends.

Add a message for warning veil is about to expire, so you have time to gtfo, its not like you can just put it back up and start leaving.

Malarious:

5 minute veil 2 minute cooldown. Message when cooldown ends.

Add a message for warning veil is about to expire, so you have time to gtfo, its not like you can just put it back up and start leaving.

Even better.

A warning at what... 1min & and another at 30s?

Edit: thats the 20% and 10% mark, much like the iPhone battery warning.