Okay.

Anyone have any other opinions on the other stuff?

Cause otherwise, I'd like to talk about the grapple idea again, but more specifically, the impact of race regarding landing them.

Ideally, I'd want all minus and neutral balance races to be able to land the grapples, while the plus balance races get a slight edge when it comes to that. Basically I want to close the gap a bit.

Is there a way to do that?

Sojiro:

Okay.

Anyone have any other opinions on the other stuff?

Cause otherwise, I'd like to talk about the grapple idea again, but more specifically, the impact of race regarding landing them.

Ideally, I'd want all minus and neutral balance races to be able to land the grapples, while the plus balance races get a slight edge when it comes to that. Basically I want to close the gap a bit.

Is there a way to do that?

In a nutshell, you want every advantage of racial balance & weapon speed without penalizing neutral balance races or increasing a monks overall speed.

INTRODUCE a new grapple mod between 75ka and 150ka. Essentially it would work like a "speed mod," but only work with grapple forms, and would not produce effect on any other kata.

This would be needed on top of the regular speed mod, which means grapple enders would only be guaranteed for neutral balance races at higher momentum. Not sure of all the math behind the time, but it should give somewhere between a 0.8s and 0.3s gain on standard writhe/summer time when all is said an done.

Of course, balance bonus races and those with enough weapon speed wouldn't need to rely on this kata grapple mod, and would prefer to invest the ka into other actions such as steelgrip and kicks.

Just a thought. Someone with more combat savvy can refine the numbers.

I would do two things as to avoid buffing the faster bal races while making the neutral and slow races viable in grappling.

1. Decrease balance time on grapples just enough to get the neutral races in under the threshold to grapple/end when they use speed. I think it only needs to be 0.1s decrease, but don't take my word for it.
2. Introduce a 200ka (balanced around Ninshi's 75ka cost, might be better to have this lower so they can use their grapples at mo3) modifier that increases writhe time by 0.5s or 1.0s (again, not sure on the numbers). You would still need to use speed here to end the grapple, so that's 300ka minimum. Add in the grapple then (ninshi is 75), you're at mo3 before you can use this modifier bare minimum, mo4 if you want to modifier it with other stuff (like hard, ochai, steelgrip, etc). Mo3 is high enough that the grapple spamming isn't occuring.

Above is under the assumption that the nerf to grapple spamming is applied only to the kata spec (else I'll be a sad, raging panda about how bad it hurts Ninjakari).

Yeah, operate under the assumption that it's only base kata grapples that get affected.

Does anyone have numbers on various kata speeds (racial bonus, native weapon, neutral race, arties, speed mod, etc.). AND also for writhe, summer, etc? I'd help to refine our brainstorming and subsequent comments.

It seems like this might be something Malarious already knows or could be gathered from extensive testing.

Yes, this part will take some time because it involves research.

Ideally, I'd want to send back the finalized report in a week or two, so there's still quite some time left.

The sooner, the better though.

I would do two things as to avoid buffing the faster bal races while making the neutral and slow races viable in grappling.

1. Decrease balance time on grapples just enough to get the neutral races in under the threshold to grapple/end when they use speed. I think it only needs to be 0.1s decrease, but don't take my word for it.
2. Introduce a 200ka (balanced around Ninshi's 75ka cost, might be better to have this lower so they can use their grapples at mo3) modifier that increases writhe time by 0.5s or 1.0s (again, not sure on the numbers). You would still need to use speed here to end the grapple, so that's 300ka minimum. Add in the grapple then (ninshi is 75), you're at mo3 before you can use this modifier bare minimum, mo4 if you want to modifier it with other stuff (like hard, ochai, steelgrip, etc). Mo3 is high enough that the grapple spamming isn't occuring.

Above is under the assumption that the nerf to grapple spamming is applied only to the kata spec (else I'll be a sad, raging panda about how bad it hurts Ninjakari).


Sahm, would this grapple mod would be in general kata, or specific to Ninjakari?

I would prefer to Sahm's solution to mine BTW. Though it may come down to whatever is easier to implement in the end.

Adding it to kata would be the easiest but hardest to balance. I've been told that ninshi s cheap compared to the others, so if each guild gets their own form, ka weights could be custom adjusted.

I think if the modifier was put into kata and the ka lowered, ninja would be the only one to benefit from earlier use, and to be perfectly honest, it would be a welcomed buff against the downsides of relying on grapples so much.

I would oppose any mod required for base race to be able to perform the grapple, instead of standardizing as we requested that would be asking for a new skill to do the same job. If we just wanted a new skill it should not be in the report and the other grapple report should be dropped. We can try to rationale it but that depends what creates "slower balance". If it is momentum over moving (swinging so hard it takes you longer to stop the weapon) then we can say you are moving in (grabbing) instead.

3s writhe.
2 tenths of a second faster than the writhe seems a good base number. Slower speed races can range from .1 to .16s of leeway, and faster races will be .23 or .26 yada yada. Then apply a weapon speed modifier which should become a % of your current speed, in this way faster races dont get as big of a bonus, and it helps offset the big bulky races. If desired I can try to figure out some more concise numbers.

Anything we have not covered, and Shuyin, update on your current report you plan to submit when its the next deadline?

Yeah I think I'll put up rough drafts for all sections discussed tomorrow. Bit tired.

Malarious:

I would oppose any mod required for base race to be able to perform the grapple, instead of standardizing as we requested that would be asking for a new skill to do the same job. If we just wanted a new skill it should not be in the report and the other grapple report should be dropped. We can try to rationale it but that depends what creates "slower balance". If it is momentum over moving (swinging so hard it takes you longer to stop the weapon) then we can say you are moving in (grabbing) instead.

3s writhe.
2 tenths of a second faster than the writhe seems a good base number. Slower speed races can range from .1 to .16s of leeway, and faster races will be .23 or .26 yada yada. Then apply a weapon speed modifier which should become a % of your current speed, in this way faster races dont get as big of a bonus, and it helps offset the big bulky races. If desired I can try to figure out some more concise numbers.

Anything we have not covered, and Shuyin, update on your current report you plan to submit when its the next deadline?

I suggested to standarize above writhe time and provide the mod for slow races. All three win then without being buffed.

Some instances would be shorted in grapples though. Any ka spent on the mod is lost from the normal form, therefore hindering offense anyway. If I cannot use constrict I have still lost something, if I lose speed mod and ninoaghi, I am subpar. The purpose of standardizing is to close the gap that currently exists. Adding a mod to do the job would simply change what kind of gap it is.

Make it worth using, standardize the writhe race regardless at 3. Then set bals from there.

Regarding the mod. Here are a few things to think about.

I am concerned that the mod should "boost" kata balance on grapple forms as a grapple mod. This would lead to situations where Nekotai would grapple spam oothai with the new grapple mod PLUS speed mod at 5mo using to get an extra advantage to lay burst vessels. Even more so if balance bonus races could also take advantage of the mod. SO... it would seems the mod should instead increase writhe time (as Sahm had suggested).

Good news. There is already mechanics in place that suggest adding to writhe time is indeed a coding possibility. Look at Necroscream Despair Web for example. However, take REPORT 770 into consideration. Apparently writhe time is separate(ish) from summer / tiaphet. I question whether the newly proposed grapple mod would face similar problems.

Finally, what should such a mod cost? Well speed mod is 100ka and covers all kata actions. This mod would need to be expensive enough to give some advantage to native weapon and balance bonus races, but not enough to drive a wedge between them and neutral races. I'd stick with my original thinking of 75ka to preferably 125ka (no more than 150) for just this reason.

Tipheret does not remove grapples, so it is a non issue.

As the grapple nerf is the result of this standardization I refuse to support any attempts, at any cost, to pay for the same change twice. Any added cost in ka is simply weaker forms for the race involved.

We accepted diminished grapples in exchange for standardized specialized ones basically.

I can appreciate your stance that monks shouldn't be doubly screwed on grapples-- first for lack of momentum on basic kata grapples and secondly by Sahm and my proposed kata mods. You right, we might be paying with two penalties.

I echo the idea that we are trying to fix what essentially "bugged" through an innocent miscalculation (balancing a basic need on an artied out, demi, aslaran) to have access to a core guild feature and not beef up the guild any more than needs be.

Malarious:

Some instances would be shorted in grapples though. Any ka spent on the mod is lost from the normal form, therefore hindering offense anyway. If I cannot use constrict I have still lost something, if I lose speed mod and ninoaghi, I am subpar. The purpose of standardizing is to close the gap that currently exists. Adding a mod to do the job would simply change what kind of gap it is.

Make it worth using, standardize the writhe race regardless at 3. Then set bals from there.

There's no way you can fill up 1000ka on ninshi at mo5. And you're modifying the grapple, not the ender, so it's still very doable at mo4 and mo5 without sacrificing other modifiers. Mo3 is where you have to start sacrificing things to use it, which I don't see a problem with at all.

So...that post isn't applicable against my mod suggestion at all.

Unbuffed, demi loboshigaru for the record. For anyone who wanted a closer look at the numbers:

| Huntress Janalon Llaewell of the Drunken Claw --------------------------|
| Strength : 16 Dexterity : 18 Constitution : 18 |
| Intelligence : 11 Size : 13 Charisma : 12 Timeout : 30 min |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|

Here's what I am wielding:

It is a one-handed weapon.
Damage: 100 Precision: 100 Speed: 115
It has a Great Rune of the Puissant Knight attached to it (#45018).
It has a Great Rune of Bleeding attached to it (#320307).

Here we go. Test 1 on grapple hold sans speed.

Name: Test1
Action 1: hold
Action 2:
Action 3:
Modifiers:
Used ka: 150

Results?
3.590 s
3.606 s

Round two with speed mod.

Name: Test2
Action 1: hold
Action 2:
Action 3:
Modifiers: speed
Used ka: 250

Results?
2.986 s
2.969 s

I'd love to see how this stacks against aslaran / faeling and illithoid / kephera. Also, what is recovery time for a standard writhe? Seems like this should provide a more clear baseline to standardize grapples.

I tested for most of that a bit ago

Malarious:

Ok I did some testing with Kregarn (he was using writhe not contort) and I have bad news, but first we will cover speeds, all of these use speed modifier:

Aslaran with 120 speed weapons:

You firmly hold Kregarn in place with an iron-strong grip.
Your momentum increases.
6679h, 5940m, 6270e, 10p, 24893en, 24900w exk<>- {49.3065}

You have recovered balance on your right arm. 2.6729
You have recovered balance on your left arm. 2.6779
6679h, 5940m, 6270e, 10p, 24900en, 24900w elrxk<>- {51.9865}
Balance of: 2.68


Aslaran with 110 speed weapons:
You firmly hold Kregarn in place with an iron-strong grip.
Your momentum increases.
6679h, 5940m, 6270e, 10p, 24893en, 24900w exk<>- {7.7965}

You have recovered balance on your right arm.
You have recovered balance on your left arm.
6679h, 5940m, 6270e, 10p, 24893en, 24900w elrxk<>-{10.5398}

Balance time: 2.74


Human with 110 speed weapons:
You firmly hold Kregarn in place with an iron-strong grip.
Your momentum increases.
7042h, 5940m, 5610e, 10p, 26393en, 24900w exk<>- {13.6751}

You have recovered balance on your right arm. 2.958
You have recovered balance on your left arm. 2.962
7042h, 5940m, 5610e, 10p, 26400en, 24900w elrxk<>- {16.8253}

Balance time: 3.15


I have enquired as to writhing, which as of Siors last changes has a range of 2.6 to 3.2 seconds. Yes writhe actually has a range to escape grapples.

So very rarely will a human ever pull a form, but there is also a chance of people to escape aslaran.using grapple.

I propose the following as a result:
- All grapple begin ignoring weapon speed.
- Standardize the writhe at say 3 seconds.
- Grappling when using a speed modifier should have a base speed of 2.8 seconds and be effected by racial (if race wont help then people might get upset, and also prevents tae'dae grapple ganks).
- Floor the grapple time at 2.6, that is, no one will ever hit faster than that.

This would put aslaran/faeling at 2.6, furrikin at 2.6 as well, yada yada. If this is considered too fast of a grapple bump base time to 2.85, but two tenths of a second is not enough time for most people to use combo's fluidly, you are either spamming or chaining forms. Instances where you want to time like nekotai spit or shofangi headslam thing, would require very precise timing.

I believe that would put things at a good level, and writhe would be faster than entangles are I believe still (web is 4?).

So aslaran is .4s faster than human with 110 speed. No idea what the actual difference ends up as at 115. Writhing has a range as also stated in that. We are standardizing both the writhe and the grapple balance as is.

I am still a hard no to creating a new modifier for this. Maybe make races with a balance penalty have slightly lower damage on damage grapples as they had to rush their grip or something. This keep tae'dae from being better every grappler. Wounds can also be toned down as you were not as precise for those grapples that cause wounds.

Here is a rough outline of the second draft so far, so we are on the same page.

The main thing we need to flesh out is the grapple thing, so monks, get to it. I like the start to testing out grapples and stuff though.

--------------------------------------------------

Monks:

Mechanics:

-Cap the momentum loss from changing targets to -1 instead of -2.

-Make it so you only lose momentum if you actually hit a new target, ex: don't lose momentum if you try to hit someone and get the 'no one here message' (Ahh, I am truly sorry, but I do not see anyone by that name here.)

-Grapple standardization changes here pending research

-Base kata grapples (hold/lock) will no longer build momentum, but they will sustain momentum (reset the momentum loss timer). If you are at Mo3 when you grapple, you will stay at Mo3. This change will not apply to monk specialization grapples.

-Add new optional parameters for kata perform:
*Kata Perform (form name) (target) (part1) (part2) (part3)
*Part1, Part2, and Part3 are over-rides for the defined form name that will tell it what body parts to target instead of the ones that are currently defined in the form. If you leave them blank, it will use the defaults set up in the form (including none, if it is a kata form that does not target any body parts).

-Remove the balance loss when a chain of more than 1 form fails. Right now, if you try a chain and it fails, you lose a burst of balance loss.

Skills:

-Make lunge mods (nekotai nekreve, shofangi skive, tahtetso tahtai, ninjakari jakati) cost 1p less per limb that misses. Ex: If your weapons both hit but the kick misses, that should be 2p, not 3p as it is currently. This is in line with warriors where they do not pay power if the attack misses.

-Add a 3p power cost to Shofangi butojo.

-Increase the equilibrium time of Harmony Akhoosh to 3s (+1 from original) and increase the power cost +1 (2 total).

-Add a 1s balance loss to Ninjakari Ninukhi regardless of whether or not a target is in the adjacent room.

-Add a 2 minute cooldown to Stealth Veil, have the cooldown take place when stealth veil fades. Increase the overall duration to 5 minutes. Add a warning 1 minute before veil expires and 30 seconds before veil expires.

Sojiro:


-Add a 3p power cost to Shofangi butojo.

I haven't been a monk in a long time, but what exactly is the difference between Shofangi Butojo and Nekotai Angkhai besides 100ka that requires Butojo to be getting a 3p cost?AngkhaiAngkhai