Unknown2012-02-20 05:37:11
Shuyin, I think there has to be an alternative solution to the Ninukhi nerf. After using it yesterday during Ascension, I'd prefer you to delete the skill and replace it with...almost anything. That nerf will -literally- kill the skill, I think.
Janalon2012-02-20 05:37:59
Sojiro:
-Add new optional parameters for kata perform:
*Kata Perform (form name) (target) (part1) (part2) (part3)
*Part1, Part2, and Part3 are over-rides for the defined form name that will tell it what body parts to target instead of the ones that are currently defined in the form. If you leave them blank, it will use the defaults set up in the form (including none, if it is a kata form that does not target any body parts).
This might not be necessary or wanted pending how REPORT 739 gets implemented. Malarious has a tremendous amount of detail regarding this particular issue. I also have an upcoming Envoy Report that will address what is not covered in 739. All the same, we could most likely drop this idea from the special report.
-Add a 2 minute cooldown to Stealth Veil, have the cooldown take place when stealth veil fades. Increase the overall duration to 5 minutes.
Can you please make an addendum that there are warning messages at the 1min and 30s marks? This will help newbies who trans stealth tremendously.
Unknown2012-02-20 05:53:21
Asmodea:
I haven't been a monk in a long time, but what exactly is the difference between Shofangi Butojo and Nekotai Angkhai besides 100ka that requires Butojo to be getting a 3p cost?AngkhaiAngkhai
Ask Wobou for specifics, he suggested it.
I believe it has to do with being able to repeatedly spam the slit lock on an opponent, so it needed changing.
Janalon:
This might not be necessary or wanted pending how REPORT 739 gets implemented. Malarious has a tremendous amount of detail regarding this particular issue. I also have an upcoming Envoy Report that will address what is not covered in 739. All the same, we could most likely drop this idea from the special report.
Can you please make an addendum that there are warning messages at the 1min and 30s marks? This will help newbies who trans stealth tremendously.
I believe Roark has already coded in the first, or is in the process of doing so. I'm keeping it.
And sure, on the second.
Janalon2012-02-20 05:55:54
Malarious:
I tested for most of that a bit ago
So aslaran is .4s faster than human with 110 speed. No idea what the actual difference ends up as at 115. Writhing has a range as also stated in that. We are standardizing both the writhe and the grapple balance as is.
I am still a hard no to creating a new modifier for this. Maybe make races with a balance penalty have slightly lower damage on damage grapples as they had to rush their grip or something. This keep tae'dae from being better every grappler. Wounds can also be toned down as you were not as precise for those grapples that cause wounds.
Slightly lower damage on damage grapples? You mean choke? Yeah. They already have lower damage as Choke/Oothai has a significant damage scaling based on the strength stat. I don't see how this particular idea would bridge the gap between neutral balance and bonus balance races.
Also, any idea that devalues the benefits of artifacts, nullifies racial bonuses (whether balance or native weapon), or adjusts writhe at large will most likely not pass administrative review. At least this opinion is based on my experience with envoy.
I agree with your assessment that grapples shouldn't have a double penalty-- lack of momentum for hold / lock / choke AND increased ka cost of a grapple modifier to ensure grapple enders. However, I don't feel the alternatives present an admin-ready solution.
Re-examine the problem. ALL races are not guaranteed grapple ender. Though aslaran / faeling come very close to having that 100% guarantee. The inverse of this statement is that all races would benefit from a grapple mod to help land enders.
Based on the numbers provided, I feel that neutral balance races need an additional 0.6s to pull off enders, or 0.3s if they have acquired the tier 1 weapon stat bonus; balance bonus races could use at least another 0.1s to completely pass the threshold.
It appears that the speed mod costs 100ka for a 0.6s bonus to all kata actions. IF a grapple mod increased writhe times by an additional 0.6s, it would seem appropriate that such a mod should also cost at most 100ka. Though, I would argue the regular speed mod is far more beneficial. Therefore the proposed grapple mod should cost exactly 75ka.
Janalon2012-02-20 13:13:01
Malarious:
I am still a hard no to creating a new modifier for this. Maybe make races with a balance penalty have slightly lower damage on damage grapples as they had to rush their grip or something. This keep tae'dae from being better every grappler. Wounds can also be toned down as you were not as precise for those grapples that cause wounds.
OK. The following is a ton of speculation with numbers grounded in a smidge of research. The purpose is to examine Malarious' proposal to change the kata speed mod FROM a flat 0.6s boost to kata actions, INTO a speed boost derived from base kata speed.
FIRST, we have a cross-section of races wielding 110 speed weapons:
3.3s Aslaran
3.6s Human
4.1s Tae'dae
NEXT, how they should appear with current speed mod applied:
2.7s Aslaran
3.0s Human
3.5s Tae'dae
WHAT IF a 25% speed bonus was alternatively applied to base balance:
2.5s Aslaran
2.7s Human
3.1s Tae'dae
Again. Numbers are not grounded in facts, but are for the purposes of speculation only. I don't believe adjusting the % speed bonus would work for the following reasons: Do we really want to boost Tae'dae when 1) monk PVP damage is so largely based on the strength stat, and 2) it would outright diminish racial bonus / malus balance across all kata actions.
Janalon2012-02-20 14:39:22
To restate, introduce a 75ka grapple mod through base kata skillset that would increase writhe time by an approximate 0.6s.
Though, several new thoughts just recently surfaced to my mind. First, we are looking to close the gap on grapple > ender to move toward standardization across the races. Second, the Malarian thought to provide a graduated bonus rather a flat bonus might better solve this problem when applied directly to balance on grapple forms. Finally, the strength stat has a high level of correlation between balance bonus and malus races.
With these ideas in mind, WHAT IF we were to scale the writhe penalty on the newly introduced grapple mod based on strength. The idea was tossed around that Tae'dae should have longer grapples based on their ability to bear hug. Well, what about a derivation on that idea? Something to the effect of ((2 x Str) X 0.1s) would determine the bonus.
~10 str would have 0.2s added to target's writhe.
~15 str would have 0.3s added to target's writhe.
~20 str would have 0.4s added to target's writhe.
~25 str would have 0.5s added to target's writhe.
Not sure about the ka cost. Something between 50ka and 100ka would seem appropriate. Just an alternate, alternate idea on the kata grapple mod to standardize grapples > enders across the races. Of course all of the numbers stands to be adjusted.
Though, several new thoughts just recently surfaced to my mind. First, we are looking to close the gap on grapple > ender to move toward standardization across the races. Second, the Malarian thought to provide a graduated bonus rather a flat bonus might better solve this problem when applied directly to balance on grapple forms. Finally, the strength stat has a high level of correlation between balance bonus and malus races.
With these ideas in mind, WHAT IF we were to scale the writhe penalty on the newly introduced grapple mod based on strength. The idea was tossed around that Tae'dae should have longer grapples based on their ability to bear hug. Well, what about a derivation on that idea? Something to the effect of ((2 x Str) X 0.1s) would determine the bonus.
~10 str would have 0.2s added to target's writhe.
~15 str would have 0.3s added to target's writhe.
~20 str would have 0.4s added to target's writhe.
~25 str would have 0.5s added to target's writhe.
Not sure about the ka cost. Something between 50ka and 100ka would seem appropriate. Just an alternate, alternate idea on the kata grapple mod to standardize grapples > enders across the races. Of course all of the numbers stands to be adjusted.
Unknown2012-02-20 17:12:10
I'm rather inclined to address all forms of adjacent room movement rather than just ninukhi myself. Though, I kind of agree that it needs a more reasonable limiter than just walls/shield, since it is far more reliable than rad in that regard.
If you can suggest a different change, I'm all ears.
My two initial ideas are to add blocking to it or a power cost on successful pulls (1p or 2p). That, or replace the skill entirely, but with what, I'm not sure.
Malarious2012-02-20 18:47:50
Veil: Janalon wanted a message when the cooldown ended, which I agree with. I do not know if we need a 1 minute and 30 second warning both, but I have no issue with that.
@Asmodea: It is to avoid green spam. Nekotai were balanced so that the prone is always 500ka, so we cannot greenlock without boost (at a cost of -3 mo and 5 power).
Estarra didnt like the idea of a longer eq on Akhoosh. We can retain it, and I suggest adding highchant as part of the reason, you no longer need to have it ready you can use it whenever.
The -1 momentum instead of -2 is when momentum is 3 or lower. While it would be nice to have at mo5, that might be a bit too minor because your next form would put you back at 5.
Tsk tsk Janalon you triple posted.
Honestly I am rethinking this standardization thing. So far we have several issues cropping up:
- Trying to balance Tae'dae means very very very fast recoveries for Aslaran, 2.1 seconds with runes? Tae'dae May be too far of an outlier to try to balance aslaran too. We are talking 5 levels of balance, thats 35%.
- Increasing writhe times any further is BAD. You need a way to leave it and having large chunks of time you cannot escape is big, especially when longer writhe also means it stacks up entangles.
- Adding ka costs still pushes forms into higher ranks in many cases.
- In my opinion it is better to scale down their damage or something than incur a new cost. We are still talking about paying for a change twice. I can do my grapples, why do I need to lose something and then require people to have to pay something after the change (ka) to get the effects.
At this point I am leaning toward balancing to BASE speed races to avoid the extra mod, headaches with writhes, and trying to make a tae'dae as fast as a human.
@Asmodea: It is to avoid green spam. Nekotai were balanced so that the prone is always 500ka, so we cannot greenlock without boost (at a cost of -3 mo and 5 power).
Estarra didnt like the idea of a longer eq on Akhoosh. We can retain it, and I suggest adding highchant as part of the reason, you no longer need to have it ready you can use it whenever.
The -1 momentum instead of -2 is when momentum is 3 or lower. While it would be nice to have at mo5, that might be a bit too minor because your next form would put you back at 5.
Tsk tsk Janalon you triple posted.
Honestly I am rethinking this standardization thing. So far we have several issues cropping up:
- Trying to balance Tae'dae means very very very fast recoveries for Aslaran, 2.1 seconds with runes? Tae'dae May be too far of an outlier to try to balance aslaran too. We are talking 5 levels of balance, thats 35%.
- Increasing writhe times any further is BAD. You need a way to leave it and having large chunks of time you cannot escape is big, especially when longer writhe also means it stacks up entangles.
- Adding ka costs still pushes forms into higher ranks in many cases.
- In my opinion it is better to scale down their damage or something than incur a new cost. We are still talking about paying for a change twice. I can do my grapples, why do I need to lose something and then require people to have to pay something after the change (ka) to get the effects.
At this point I am leaning toward balancing to BASE speed races to avoid the extra mod, headaches with writhes, and trying to make a tae'dae as fast as a human.
Unknown2012-02-20 18:51:30
Remember also that the report is asking that Tae'dae and Igasho drop to a Lv1 balance malus, so trying to balance around a Lv3 malus is going to be problematic.
Janalon2012-02-20 19:11:40
foolofsound:
Remember also that the report is asking that Tae'dae and Igasho drop to a Lv1 balance malus, so trying to balance around a Lv3 malus is going to be problematic.
There's no real desire to balance monks around balance malus races-- only balance bonus and neutral. Not sure why Malarious is dwelling on Tae'Dae.
Also to your point, "Adding ka costs still pushes forms into higher ranks in many cases," are we looking to ensure grapple enders are viable below 3mo? A 50 - 100ka cost at +4mo would be negligible. The added ka cost is to offset the difference between aslaran / faeling and human.
EDIT: Also, balance bonus races also have damage / wounds scaled down because monk PVP is largely based on the strength stat. You aren't losing anything. Balance bonus races can pull off grapple enders like they did before.
Either of my grapple mod proposals would see that writhing balances aren't increased more than a fraction of a second... which is exactly what your proposal would do if you standardized a 2.6s to 3.2s writhe into a flat 3s.
The difference between proposals is that one adds time via standardization, and the other via a grapple mod. My second suggestion diminishes benefits for low strength races so aslaran / faeling don't get more of a push than needed.
Asmodea2012-02-21 00:00:12
Malarious:
@Asmodea: It is to avoid green spam. Nekotai were balanced so that the prone is always 500ka, so we cannot greenlock without boost (at a cost of -3 mo and 5 power).
Thanks Maly :)
Malarious2012-02-21 21:53:06
foolofsound:
Remember also that the report is asking that Tae'dae and Igasho drop to a Lv1 balance malus, so trying to balance around a Lv3 malus is going to be problematic.
Estarra was opposed to moving Tae'dae and Igasho to lvl 1.
Janalon
.
There was requests to make tae'dae work and I had been trying to go along those lines but it just will not work out.
I think if base speed races would be able to pull enders with NO ADDITIONAL MODIFIERS that would be fine. An extra modifier to help slower races should be given as a speed bonus instead of a writhe increase because:
1) The hindering ability of a grapple. It may not stop attacks but some people dislike they cant just run.
2) Writhing grapple escapes all grapples, this would introduce some new issues into writhing if 1 person is a normal grappler and the other is a Tae'Dae boosting your writhe out time.
3) I think we may just want to abandon negative outliers from the equation as there is no visible way to work out aslaran and tae'dae both working without either causing super long writhes or super fast grapplers.s
That is just my thoughts, I realized I had not vocalized point 2, so wanted to make sure I did so.
Unknown2012-02-21 21:55:46
Estarra actually didn't say that she was opposed to moving them. In fact, it was pretty much the only change that was considered RE: igasho/tae'dae.
I am fine with just ignoring negative balance races. It's a shame, but if it's not doable, then it's not doable. Go on.
I am fine with just ignoring negative balance races. It's a shame, but if it's not doable, then it's not doable. Go on.
Malarious2012-02-21 22:03:00
For some reason I was remembering the part of her disliking baselining races and marking that as "dont change balance loss". If it was only -1 then it could be quite possible... just make the baseline a tiny bit faster and reverse scale speed bonus.
Janalon2012-02-22 03:22:47
As far as I can surmise, there are three general ways to better ensure grapple enders for neutral balance races:
Standardize Writhe
Standardize writhe from the current 2.6s to 3.2s range to a straight 3.0s time. Even with that, you will need to increase monk kata balance by at least 0.2s so neutral balance races have a small window to insert the ender. I think we both agree this is a preferable solution, but not sure such a game-wide change would be easily received by administration.
Balance Bonus
Provide monks with an additional balance bonus? To what, all kata modifiers? Good luck arguing that monks should be faster on all kata actions. Grapple modifiers? So anyone can sit at 5mo and spam oothai + vessels > amihai + vessels with added speed bonus on the grapple forms? Do the slower races really need this? Wouldn't the balance bonus races abuse this "feature"?
This line of thinking introduces more problems than it provides effective solutions.
Writhe Penalty
I outlined my arguments above and won't repeat them here. Your argument #2 points to a flaw in combat strategy (when and when not to add this writhe mod and coordinating attacks), and not a game breaking mechanic that an additional speed bonus would provide. I don't really think this is the most preferable solution, but certainly the least complicated answer that most directly answers the problem with the least harmful side effects.
Conclusion
Whatever solution, we are looking at a solution that will give a 0.4s to 0.6s advantage to help neutral balance races more reliably pull off grapple enders. Malarious, can you provide a concrete solution? Looking for you to specific exactly what should be done (outside of capitalizing NO).
Standardize Writhe
Malarious:
I think if base speed races would be able to pull enders with NO ADDITIONAL MODIFIERS that would be fine.
Standardize writhe from the current 2.6s to 3.2s range to a straight 3.0s time. Even with that, you will need to increase monk kata balance by at least 0.2s so neutral balance races have a small window to insert the ender. I think we both agree this is a preferable solution, but not sure such a game-wide change would be easily received by administration.
Balance Bonus
Malarious:
An extra modifier to help slower races should be given as a speed bonus instead of a writhe increase because:
Provide monks with an additional balance bonus? To what, all kata modifiers? Good luck arguing that monks should be faster on all kata actions. Grapple modifiers? So anyone can sit at 5mo and spam oothai + vessels > amihai + vessels with added speed bonus on the grapple forms? Do the slower races really need this? Wouldn't the balance bonus races abuse this "feature"?
This line of thinking introduces more problems than it provides effective solutions.
Writhe Penalty
Malarious:
2) Writhing grapple escapes all grapples, this would introduce some new issues into writhing if 1 person is a normal grappler and the other is a Tae'Dae boosting your writhe out time.
I outlined my arguments above and won't repeat them here. Your argument #2 points to a flaw in combat strategy (when and when not to add this writhe mod and coordinating attacks), and not a game breaking mechanic that an additional speed bonus would provide. I don't really think this is the most preferable solution, but certainly the least complicated answer that most directly answers the problem with the least harmful side effects.
Conclusion
Whatever solution, we are looking at a solution that will give a 0.4s to 0.6s advantage to help neutral balance races more reliably pull off grapple enders. Malarious, can you provide a concrete solution? Looking for you to specific exactly what should be done (outside of capitalizing NO).
Malarious2012-02-22 04:18:49
Janalon:
Standardize writhe from the current 2.6s to 3.2s range to a straight 3.0s time. Even with that, you will need to increase monk kata balance by at least 0.2s so neutral balance races have a small window to insert the ender. I think we both agree this is a preferable solution, but not sure such a game-wide change would be easily received by administration.
Admin have previously made changes both to writhes (Sior made changes at least twice), and have altered the balance on grapples themselves (Sior also did this one at least twice). We can also weaken weapon speed if needed.
Provide monks with an additional balance bonus? To what, all kata modifiers? Good luck arguing that monks should be faster on all kata actions. Grapple modifiers? So anyone can sit at 5mo and spam oothai + vessels > amihai + vessels with added speed bonus on the grapple forms? Do the slower races really need this? Wouldn't the balance bonus races abuse this "feature"?
This was in case you wanted tae'dae able to have a way to use enders
Janalon2012-02-23 01:33:03
I thought the speed bonus in kata performance chains might change under the new momentum tracking system. But, here is the AB:
What is the speed bonus after the second form in a kata performance chain? Also, are there any ideas to tweak out this syntax to help neutral balance races pull off grapple enders? If memory serves me right, this is the only way I can reliably pull off an ender.
To perform kata maneuvers, you execute KATA PERFORM. You can link several forms together if you wish, or execute a single form at a time. Note that after the third form you can change to a new sequence of forms. Once you change direction, it will take another three forms to change it again. If you choose to link several forms together, they will start to move faster after the third one. To teach forms to others, you can use KATA TEACH.
What is the speed bonus after the second form in a kata performance chain? Also, are there any ideas to tweak out this syntax to help neutral balance races pull off grapple enders? If memory serves me right, this is the only way I can reliably pull off an ender.
Unknown2012-02-23 19:42:51
Has the idea of basing grappling speed off of Dexterity stat ever been considered? That way high str races like Tae'dae and Igasho wouldn't be able to pull off grappling reliably as higher dex races since they have a particularly low base dex stat. We can also cap the speed bonus to have substantially high diminishing returns when it hits around 18 dex or something.
Unknown2012-02-23 19:46:09
Edenwe:
Has the idea of basing grappling speed off of Dexterity stat ever been considered? That way high str races like Tae'dae and Igasho wouldn't be able to pull off grappling reliably as higher dex races since they have a particularly low base dex stat. We can also cap the speed bonus to have substantially high diminishing returns when it hits around 18 dex or something.
Tae'dae and Igasho already have a Balance Malus, and cannot perform them reliably.
Janalon2012-02-23 21:09:27
Janalon:
What is the speed bonus after the second form in a kata performance chain? Also, are there any ideas to tweak out this syntax to help neutral balance races pull off grapple enders? If memory serves me right, this is the only way I can reliably pull off an ender.
For the sake of knowledge:
Form Test
Minimum momentum 1
Action 1: hold
Action 2:
Action 3:
Modifiers: speed
Used ka: 250 / 250
Minimum momentum 2
Action 1: hold
Action 2:
Action 3:
Modifiers: speed
Used ka: 250 / 350
Minimum momentum 3
Action 1: hold
Action 2:
Action 3:
Modifiers: speed
Used ka: 250 / 450
Minimum momentum 4
Action 1: hold
Action 2:
Action 3:
Modifiers: speed
Used ka: 250 / 750
I conducted a KATA PERFORM ANKASTRA TEST TEST TEST TEST chain to check the speed bonus. Here are my test results where H# is hold form & momentum, and the seconds listed right after.
H1 - (forgot to start timer)
H2 - 3.008s
H3 - 2.969s
H4 - 2.497s
Yup. That 0.5s balance bonus on the fourth form is exactly the amount of time a neutral balance race needs to ensure the landing of a grapple ender. There's an idea waiting to be mined here!
WHAT IF we were to consider a "solution 4" to reconsider how kata performance chains could be utilized and/or revised (through envoy / special report) to provide better access to grapple enders for neutral balance races?
For example, moving the speed bonus to activate after the second form in a chain, OR every third form in a performance chain (i.e. normal, normal, speed, normal, normal, speed). Trying to think outside the box here.
That would essentially necessitate a monk would go in with a raze > grapple > ender. That second caveat would be to prevent runaway performance chains... which is essentially necessary so a balance bonus race doesn't grapple chain in hyper.
