You are suggesting a change to a mechanic that already exists to do something it already does... earlier?

Go back to before the monk speed report went in. Base Balance could use enders, we should be aiming for that without any special additions needed. Base races lost access to grapple enders at announce 1710, aslaran and faeling regained proper use of them in announce 1731. Sior stopped making changes but his testing was done with an Aslaran, hence base races are still broken.

Base races unable to use enders is a BUG created by Sior.

Change the mechanics the same way Sior did to allow base speed enders (de-vary writhe and do a minor tweak to balance time).

Malarious:

Go back to before the monk speed report went in. Base Balance could use enders, we should be aiming for that without any special additions needed. Base races lost access to grapple enders at announce 1710, aslaran and faeling regained proper use of them in announce 1731. Sior stopped making changes but his testing was done with an Aslaran, hence base races are still broken.

Base races unable to use enders is a BUG created by Sior.

We both clearly agree on this point. However, I want to propose alternate solutions in the event the admin designate the "bug" as a "feature." By nature, I am analytical and comprehensive. Just trying to explore all the possible options.

Janalon:


We both clearly agree on this point. However, I want to propose alternate solutions in the event the admin designate the "bug" as a "feature." By nature, I am analytical and comprehensive. Just trying to explore all the possible options.

In the event this change fails, the other grapple change should be omitted from the report. For such a crippling change I think it is fair we not suffer the "payment" to undo a bug. That said, I believe Shuyin would be the one to check on this.

I'd really prefer packaging both grapple standardization and grapple sustaining together.

From what I gather during Janalon's research, the only solid conclusion she was able to draw was to standardize grapple writhe time to 3s.

There was a mention about trying to help slow balance races end their grapples, but the recommendations were inconclusive.

Was there anything else I missed?

Nope.

We are abandoning the need to get Tae'dae to pull it. (Although moving down to only -1 means with runes they might BARELY pull them off anyway). We cannot see the code to gauge effects of runes. But something along the lines of 2.8s base balance for max speed weapon. Maybe slightly reduced effects of runes... or hard floor of 2.5s

This is what I am worried about, if we have to allow all effects in then we are talking larger gaps. :/

Sojiro:

From what I gather during Janalon's research, the only solid conclusion she was able to draw was to standardize grapple writhe time to 3s.

Either Standardize Grapple Times or Grapple Mod Writhe Balance would work quite conclusively. Though Malarious and myself agree that Standardize & Adjust would produce the most monk-favourable results.

What about the problem with neutrals landing enders then? No results yet?

Sojiro:

What about the problem with neutrals landing enders then? No results yet?

Oh no. There is plenty of conclusive results.

3.15s neutral race balance on kata actions with a 110 1h (or 220 2h) weapon and 100ka speed mod.
3.00s neutral race balance with a 115 speed 1h (or 230 speed 2h) weapon and 100ka speed mod.

Personally I would balance around the latter, as it inherently includes illithoid/kephera with un-runed weapons.

2.60s to 3.2s for standard writhe balance.



Neutral races with 115 speed 1h kata weapons + 100 ka speed mod would need to gain a 0.2s to ensure success on grapple enders.

Malarious and I both agree on providing an additional 0.2s cushion to better ensure success. That means we need a 0.4s gap between the grapple and ender.

Make that 0.4s to include neutral races without runes / native weapon bonus with another 0.2s cushion. That means we need a 0.6s gap between the grapple and ender.



Currently neutral races can dip below that 2.6s minimum writhe threshold by creating a kata performance chain where the grapple is the third form, and ender the fourth. Problem is that the monk would require a straight 9.0s to 12.0s unhindered performance to pull off. Not likely.



I proposed a 75ka grapple ender to penalize opponent's writhe times by the requisite 0.6s. However, Malarious is outright opposed that balance bonus and neutral races should have to invest any additional ka into ensuring a grapple ender, as it means grapple > ender combos would be unavailable at 0mo / 1mo.

This solution would work. Just a matter of philosophical difference about what a monk should be able to accomplish in low momentum gain stages. He doesn't want to see grapple nerf plus ka penalty on grapple enders for neutral races.



Malarious and I both agree that standardizing writhe to a straight 3.0s and increasing all monk kata balance by a 0.2s would also solve the problem without introducing additional penalties to monks. However, I am uncertain admin will be willing to 1) increase monk speed across the boards to roll back monk balance nerf a smidge, and 2) raise writhe times across the boards.

You mean decreasing monk balance by 0.2 seconds in the last paragraph right, in essence making them faster?

So basically you're looking at making grapples take 3 seconds to writhe out of and want to make neutral races able to end grapples by speeding them up a bit?

Here is my ideal:

- Writhe changed to a flat 3s to escape.
- Base recovery should be 2.8 with max speed weapons and a speed modifier.
- Hard floor of 2.5s to avoid super high speed forms. I was going to say 2.6 but aslaran OR runes would hit that easy and admin did not want to entirely tune out a perk.

If this is too fast/high we can increase the writhe to 3.1, recovery 2.9 etc. I think the goal is agreed on the problem is specifics. Shuyin did admin seem opposed to the idea of the changes?

Sojiro:

You mean decreasing monk balance by 0.2 seconds in the last paragraph right, in essence making them faster?

So basically you're looking at making grapples take 3 seconds to writhe out of and want to make neutral races able to end grapples by speeding them up a bit?

Yes.

As a point of information, before the speed nerf hit, aslaran with max runes was at 1.9s. My suggested nerf to hit the outliers without hurting the regular monks was to put a hardcap of 2.4s on bal recovery. With tempering, the runes would actually allow you to invest wep stats into something other than speed.

The 4th solution reduced monks bal recovery by a full 1 second across the board. That was a significant nerf that created this problem, and in the report, I clearly stated that it was intended to be a multi-part nerf to slowly bring monks in. The 4th solution screwed that up by keeping a huge spectrum and only making the runed-out monks effective.

I had wanted to look at damage modifiers and other stuff, etc. Unfortunately the nerf made it a lot more difficult to tweak monks.

In speaking with my guild to gather ideas about future envoy reports, the following came to light:


We are excited by the possibility of grapple enders becoming more highly available for neutral balance races. Nekotai only have two advanced katas: the 350ka Oothai head and 500ka, -1mo Ootangk. Moves like the 400ka Amihai and 500ka (-1mo on mangle) Oriama can play a significant part into late momentum strategy.

The hit on Oriama particularly concerns me. Given the lack of momentum building on kata Lock, and heavy cost/penalty with Ootangk, we have no reasonable access to our Oriama ender. So yeah, we are looking to adjust balance for neutral races... but Nekotai will have no reasonable mid-momentum action to utilize the ender.

Oothai head would be the only remaining means to achieve any grapple ender. It doesn't synthesize with Oriama (which focuses on limbs). It does work well with Amihai... however, Discipline Hold Breath significantly impacts Oothai. Without any other form of asphyx defense, the first minute of the two minute defense would confer +50% resistance against our only grapple attack.


ANYWAY... the point of all this is Nekotai will need to envoy around Oothai / Ootangk / Oriama in the upcoming reports in order for our grapples & enders to be mechanically viable for the guild.

Edenwe:

Quote: Suggestion: Apply the nerf ONLY to the KATA spec.

I agree with this. Can we get more feedback on this particular idea? And he's right, if Admins did not take stance, parrying, rebounding into account. Then this nerf should not come to pass without taking those factors into consideration. Nerfing grappling skills in just the KATA spec alone would get rid of a lot of early momentum level 1-2 issues regarding grappling spam, but not intrinsically effect skills in monk specs such as ninshi. And those weapon grapples alone have a lot of hurdles to jump over already (rebounding, stance, parrying checks)

Fact check on this claim. I revisited my kata action ka cost chart to verify that nerfing momentum on kata spec would indeed eliminate early momentum gain due to grapple spam. Here are the results;

UNARMED: 150 hold, 200 lock, 200 choke
SHOFANGI: 175 logami, 175 bogami, 150 tomati, 100 kumati
NEKOTAI: 350 oothai, 500 ootangk
NINJAKARI: 75 ninshi
TAHTETSO: 250 bomrakobo

As I see it, every guild outside Nekotai has a grapple or lock with the requisite ka cost low enough that can be initiated at 1mo. So my question is what would a momentum nerf on basic kata grapples actually accomplish as a means to standardize balance across all monk guilds?

Janalon:

As I see it, every guild outside Nekotai has a grapple or lock with the requisite ka cost low enough that can be initiated at 1mo. So my question is what would a momentum nerf on basic kata grapples actually accomplish as a means to standardize balance across all monk guilds?

Which of those bypass parry/stance/rebounding?

If none, then there is a gain there, as those things still act like a defense.


But, I have officially moved to the "rewrite every skill set" boat.

There is no boat to rewrite, we give you a life jacket and throw you overboard and see if you make it past the sharks while waiting.

http://youtu.be/-0dTSY3J8lw

Oh, I know it probably won't ever happen, even if I think that it's less work in the long run to do each guild individually.

Then we could do things like...standardize monks across the board without hurting any one guild in particular, etc, etc.


The momentum system is actually a decent system, but it fails because there's no universality among monks aside from the base mechanics and skill set.

Steps to success:

1) Agree to rewrite all 4 guilds
2) Standardize monks with specific goals (ie, grapples, regen affs are penalized, an ender counts as 0.5mo penalty, etc.)
3) Rewrite monk guilds based on decisions in 2.
4) Implement changes in 2.
5) Review and agree upon 3.
6) Implement changes in 3.
7) ????
8) Profit.

Shuyin, update list please?

Are we forgetting anything? Where are things standing in your mind? What needs more discussion?

Also..... add change:
* Kata - Lock should no longer stop use of arms.
* Along with this I propose we review Shofangi - Logami. Which allows the limb to be used but does something like triple the balance on it (I lose 9s of balance if Logami'd). However as a specced grapple I do not want to remove all effect, so we would need to replace it.

I feel that the nerf to lock is too strong. If it won't be gaining momentum, then that's sufficient enough.