Malarious2012-03-01 18:28:41
Removal of momentum gain does not validate its current function. As it is it can fully stop two handed weapons from being used. While the function remains it is too strong for a grapple, its effect can be replaced, but direct effects to anothers offense is a bit much.
Unknown2012-03-01 19:08:03
It's a trade. Your offense for another.
Janalon2012-03-01 20:24:00
I was under the impression that only the non-spec kata grapples (not enders) were losing momentum. Essentially hold, lock, choke. Everything else was going to work as-is. This point needs to be clarified.
Unknown2012-03-01 20:53:51
Yes, non-spec grapples will only have this change.
Here is the updated list so far after taking into account what people have said. Please let me know if I missed anything big.
I intend to submit the entire thing by the end of next week, which I feel is ample time to iron out anything else.
The only changes here are taking into account Sahmiam's suggestion for Ninukhi and the grapple time changes.
Please let me know if the grapple suggestions are sufficient. I understand that some guilds may be adversely affected by this change compared to others, like Nekotai and their oriama thing, so if you want to suggest a spec move that allows you to do this, you're free to and we can talk about it.
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Monks:
Mechanics:
-Cap the momentum loss from changing targets to -1 instead of -2.
-Make it so you only lose momentum if you actually hit a new target, ex: don't lose momentum if you try to hit someone and get the 'no one here message' (Ahh, I am truly sorry, but I do not see anyone by that name here.)
-Decrease the base balance time of grapples by 0.2 seconds
-Standardize the time it takes to writhe from a grapple to 3 seconds.
-Base kata grapples (hold/lock/choke) will no longer build momentum, but they will sustain momentum (reset the momentum loss timer). If you are at Mo3 when you grapple, you will stay at Mo3. This change will not apply to monk specialization grapples.
-Add new optional parameters for kata perform:
*Kata Perform (form name) (target) (part1) (part2) (part3)
*Part1, Part2, and Part3 are over-rides for the defined form name that will tell it what body parts to target instead of the ones that are currently defined in the form. If you leave them blank, it will use the defaults set up in the form (including none, if it is a kata form that does not target any body parts).
-Remove the balance loss when a chain of more than 1 form fails. Right now, if you try a chain and it fails, you lose a burst of balance loss.
Skills:
-Make lunge mods (nekotai nekreve, shofangi skive, tahtetso tahtai, ninjakari jakati) cost 1p less per limb that misses. Ex: If your weapons both hit but the kick misses, that should be 2p, not 3p as it is currently. This is in line with warriors where they do not pay power if the attack misses.
-Add a 3p power cost to Shofangi butojo.
-Increase the equilibrium time of Harmony Akhoosh to 3s (+1 from original) and increase the power cost +1 (2 total).
-Allow Ninjakari Ninukhi to be prevented by blocking (beastmastery/athletics block).
-Add a 2 minute cooldown to Stealth Veil, have the cooldown take place when stealth veil fades. Increase the overall duration to 5 minutes. Add a warning 1 minute before veil expires and 30 seconds before veil expires.
Here is the updated list so far after taking into account what people have said. Please let me know if I missed anything big.
I intend to submit the entire thing by the end of next week, which I feel is ample time to iron out anything else.
The only changes here are taking into account Sahmiam's suggestion for Ninukhi and the grapple time changes.
Please let me know if the grapple suggestions are sufficient. I understand that some guilds may be adversely affected by this change compared to others, like Nekotai and their oriama thing, so if you want to suggest a spec move that allows you to do this, you're free to and we can talk about it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Monks:
Mechanics:
-Cap the momentum loss from changing targets to -1 instead of -2.
-Make it so you only lose momentum if you actually hit a new target, ex: don't lose momentum if you try to hit someone and get the 'no one here message' (Ahh, I am truly sorry, but I do not see anyone by that name here.)
-Decrease the base balance time of grapples by 0.2 seconds
-Standardize the time it takes to writhe from a grapple to 3 seconds.
-Base kata grapples (hold/lock/choke) will no longer build momentum, but they will sustain momentum (reset the momentum loss timer). If you are at Mo3 when you grapple, you will stay at Mo3. This change will not apply to monk specialization grapples.
-Add new optional parameters for kata perform:
*Kata Perform (form name) (target) (part1) (part2) (part3)
*Part1, Part2, and Part3 are over-rides for the defined form name that will tell it what body parts to target instead of the ones that are currently defined in the form. If you leave them blank, it will use the defaults set up in the form (including none, if it is a kata form that does not target any body parts).
-Remove the balance loss when a chain of more than 1 form fails. Right now, if you try a chain and it fails, you lose a burst of balance loss.
Skills:
-Make lunge mods (nekotai nekreve, shofangi skive, tahtetso tahtai, ninjakari jakati) cost 1p less per limb that misses. Ex: If your weapons both hit but the kick misses, that should be 2p, not 3p as it is currently. This is in line with warriors where they do not pay power if the attack misses.
-Add a 3p power cost to Shofangi butojo.
-Increase the equilibrium time of Harmony Akhoosh to 3s (+1 from original) and increase the power cost +1 (2 total).
-Allow Ninjakari Ninukhi to be prevented by blocking (beastmastery/athletics block).
-Add a 2 minute cooldown to Stealth Veil, have the cooldown take place when stealth veil fades. Increase the overall duration to 5 minutes. Add a warning 1 minute before veil expires and 30 seconds before veil expires.
Malarious2012-03-01 21:01:42
It's a trade. Your offense for another.
Well think of it this way. Lock keeps your offense from lowering (it wont decay) but it creates more and more time where you can cure up against a warrior because they cant hit, or have to hit with only one arm. Same for monks.
Logami you GAIN momentum AND the other person has very long balance. Put this in perspective, Logami means if you attack you will lose that momentum before you can hit again (9s off bal). While the Logami user is gaining momentum as he 100% negates your offense basically.
Both of these grapples are rather problematic. I propose changes.
Lock is a kata move it does not need major effects. If you feel we need to give it another effect make it lessen wounds from that limb instead of stopping all attacks with it.
Logami I would defer to a Shofangi preferably. If it was made to mimic lock it would likely stop all offense against you by warriors (lower wounding on all hits, ouch).
Unknown2012-03-01 21:06:03
Sure, we can talk about lock and logami. I'm not opposed to adding it in, but I'd like other monks to weigh in.
Are the grapple standardization and balance gain times fine?
Are the grapple standardization and balance gain times fine?
Unknown2012-03-01 22:02:39
A simple solution would be to have lock, if targeted on arms, lower momentum. And let's not forget that the person you're doing it to can ALSO cure up.
Malarious2012-03-01 22:09:32
Making it lower momentum would also remove it from situations such as the guilds who require lock to mangle. Best option is to just make it not effect use/balance and instead change impact. You do not need to be curing up against Logami, so their time is moot.
As to Shuyin I will edit this post when I have exact numbers for you Shu. Need to check exact balance speed for base race with max speed unruned. Balance recovery should be able 2.9s with writhe of 3. Between stratagems and kata chains I think we need less of a gap now (<3 Iosai).
As to Shuyin I will edit this post when I have exact numbers for you Shu. Need to check exact balance speed for base race with max speed unruned. Balance recovery should be able 2.9s with writhe of 3. Between stratagems and kata chains I think we need less of a gap now (<3 Iosai).
Janalon2012-03-01 22:47:41
Sojiro:
-Base kata grapples (hold/lock/choke) will no longer build momentum, but they will sustain momentum (reset the momentum loss timer). If you are at Mo3 when you grapple, you will stay at Mo3. This change will not apply to monk specialization grapples.
I was wondering if anyone could explain the true impact of this change given that most of the spec & grapples locks can be initiated at 1mo? Look at the information provided below.
Janalon:
UNARMED: 150 hold, 200 lock, 200 choke
SHOFANGI: 175 logami, 175 bogami, 150 tomati, 100 kumati
NEKOTAI: 350 oothai, 500 ootangk
NINJAKARI: 75 ninshi
TAHTETSO: 250 bomrakobo
Considering some of the spec grapples & locks are more powerful and cost less ka than there basic kata counterparts, I don't feel like this change would be effective.
Unknown2012-03-01 22:53:54
They're also more defendable against since you can parry/rebound them. It basically encourages the use of the less reliable kind of grapple.
Raeri2012-03-02 02:16:49
I will note that the basic kata grapple thing indirectly nerfs Shofangi Crunch, which drops momentum on attempt and since none of the spec-grapples can actually target head - you list four of them up there, but that's really just one for arms, another for legs, one for chest and another for gut. A new spec-grapple targetting head could work, (or crunchrequirements reworked into a weapongrapple initiate move that instas on shred or something? Dunno) Also, if power cost is to be attached to Butojo, perhaps the extra momentum loss that was originally attached to it prevent spamming locks can be reversed as the power cost would then prevent greenlock-spam.
Malarious2012-03-02 19:26:05
I think -2 and 3p for slitlock is actually fairly on par. Nekotai are -3 and 5p with the reasoning they are SLIGHTLY more reliable at pulling it. At the cost of 5p though you cannot just greenlock or they will just like insta cure out and you are down more than they are. Shofangi have alot of free regeneration and fairly easy/cheap mangles to go with shoflai. -2 and 3p seems like a good level for them. Though I can be swayed if you can make an argument why -2 is too expensive.
