The only major disadvantage an SL faeling has at demigod is the low strength. If not for that, they would be the most ridiculous race out there at the highest end.

18 dex, level 2 balance bonus. The "low con" is completely overcome at demigod with the level 3 sip- in fact, caster spec faelings, with the exception of shadowsinger, actually have more constitution than their merian equivalents! Add in nightkiss aura, and you have an amazingly fast, tough midget with no elemental maluses at all.

The drawback to Shadowlords is what Xenthos has been railing on for months. They don't have enough strength to drive home their advantage. I have mixed feelings on this. On the one hand, an org's spec knight race should have enough material to get the job done. On the other, SL faelings have every other advantage going for them. If they actually had another disadvantage, then it would be far easier for me to hop in to the "give them a little strength" camp with both feet.

But I have no interest in making them flying aslaran with none of the drawbacks, and more advantages.

And saying "People play crappy races for RP reasons, so they don't need to be balanced" is a horrible argument/thing to imply. It practically speaks for itself. I mean, damn. Put the shoe on the other foot. Ideally, we want races to have both RP and mechanical appeal. Keeping high dex from knight-proofing races, and low-dex from making otherwise obvious "knight" races unappealing does just this, without having to argue for more dex for each of them on an individual basis.

Have to disagree with that last paragraph. You want to remove all the flavor and make ever choice as bland as the other?

This game needs stat packs for people to play the combinations they want to. But since we don't have them, don't remove the uniqueness from the available choices.

Why should every race have mechanical -and- RP value? That's generic and boring. What's next? Nerf balance recovery because some races are slower?

Akui never said make the races the same, she said make them viable. From an RP side, those races -should- be great warriors. Its a pretty bad argument to make that some races should be for RP only and shouldn't be mechanically sound.

On the other hand, I will say that the dingbat hats do somewhat allow you to pick one race for RP while having another for stats.

Rainydays:

"People play crappy races for RP reasons, so they don't need to be balanced"

Indeed. >_> What am I gonna do? Tell every novice who wants to fight with their org-race that they're sub-par for combat and that they need to forsake all the RP they've developed and then change to a race with 15+ dex to be more combat viable?

*edit* And I'm not gonna tell a novice that they have to fork over their cash for a race hat. >_> Then it'll open a big mess like, "I thought this game was F2P. Wth? So it's a pay-for-perks?"

Naia:

Why should every race have mechanical -and- RP value? That's generic and boring. What's next? Nerf balance recovery because some races are slower?

Because all races have RP value. Why should only some races have mechanical value? You stance boils down to "Why should combat characters also be able to RP? That's not FAIR!". How can you possibly call that justified? Nobody is saying that we should make all races viable at everything, only that they be viable at something. Is that at all a bad thing?

Naia:

Why should every race have mechanical -and- RP value? That's generic and boring. What's next? Nerf balance recovery because some races are slower?

Really? All races should have some mechanical value for some class, which just isn't the case. I'm kinda struck speechless by how wrong this remark is.

You guys don't even understand what dex does but you're complaining about it. You assume Glomdoring kicks your butts for mechanical reasons.

This is why Choke is getting deleted. Because you want a generic, mundane game where everyone is a carbon copy of everyone else. That game exists. It's called WoW. Get out of my mud and go play it.

Naia:

You guys don't even understand what dex does but you're complaining about it. You assume Glomdoring kicks your butts for mechanical reasons.

This is why Choke is getting deleted. Because you want a generic, mundane game where everyone is a carbon copy of everyone else. That game exists. It's called WoW. Get out of my mud and go play it.

I'm assuming that this is a troll because I can't believe that you actually think that this is what any of this is about. If you feel the need to be an ass, please do it elsewhere.

Naia:

You guys don't even understand what dex does but you're complaining about it. You assume Glomdoring kicks your butts for mechanical reasons.

This is why Choke is getting deleted. Because you want a generic, mundane game where everyone is a carbon copy of everyone else. That game exists. It's called WoW. Get out of my mud and go play it.

Ah, I get it. You're a troll. Read the rest of the posts in the thread, where we both demonstrate a fair knowledge of how things work, and a desire to test things, and where people totally disagree with you. Note that faelings aren't a Glom only race, and that this isn't about player politics. Also, notice that Faelings were mentioned as being currently sub-par to Aslarans, which have no specs period.

Correct, not every race needs to be good for every class (Though I could argue that faelings approach that). Every race should be good for something though not all really are at the moment. Races that are fairly obviously supposed to be warrior races don't do it well (see the entire thread on the race report).

EDIT: He beat me to it, but the point stands... You're jumping to some pretty wild conclusions and ordering people to leave the game, really? Some of those people are Envoys, ya know... people who submit themselves to massive headaches for the purpose of trying to bring balance to the game?

So the current plan for dex is:

-Remove/diminish dex's effect on avoiding wound affs.
-Keep dex's effect on dealing wound affs.

Correct?

I've paraphrased this quote before, but I do again, because aruing with such misdirection generally only encourages it.

"The unfounded rancour in your remark, I'll not dignify with comment. But what I would like to address is your general tendancy towards wild and unfounded hyperbole."

Actually, since others already have, I'll skip that as well.

Trolling aside, look at your position rationally. What if it were faelings that were essentially unusuable, even for guilds which they seem intended for? What if some big bad OP Tae'dae player from Ackleberry was telling you that you should be fine with faelings being horrible, that you choose to play a horrible race due to RP? And that the fact that you wanted them to be viable, even if just for the archetype which they are intended for in our hypothetical, merely meant that you wanted everyone to be the same?

See how silly that sounds? In one breath, believing that people are out to get faelings, you bemoan their post and complain that the change would have an adverse mechanical effect on them. In your next post, you get mad at people for wanting to remove an adverse effect from another race. Honestly, you undermine your own effort more than anyone explaining the flaws in your points merely by your own inconsistency.

And, even if making low dex knights more viable, or high dex characters less immune to knights did impact faelings in any meaningful way, that would be grounds for that strength increase that several EG players are so enthusastic for.

How horrid.

Sojiro:

So the current plan for dex is:

-Remove/diminish dex's effect on avoiding wound affs.
-Keep dex's effect on dealing wound affs.

Correct?

Sounds correct to me.

Genuine question alert.

How would that make high str, low dex races more appealing as warriors? If I understood the initial question, it was that low dex warriors had a lower chance of landing those vital afflictions that were neccessary for making progress in the fight, or, in other words, low dex hampers specifically their offense. But how would weakening defense in general aid in that. Wouldn't the races with higher dex still have the advantage, and thus we'd essentially boost warriors in general, but not the want-to-be warrior races in specific to any greater degree?

RE: Shuyin

Well, at the extreme end, yes. However, the problem still stands for the low dex knight races regarding dealing them. That said, evidence of that is anecdotal. People avoid the races in part because of their low dexterity. From flopping between elfen lady back when, Guardian drac, Merian Lady, Orclach, human, aslaran and Dwarf at the moment, I will attest that it certainly feels like landing afflictions with the lower dex races was more difficult.

Even if the high end effect of dex on affliction dealing remained, dramatically softening the low end difficulties in doing the same would go some ways towards helping the situtation.

It's because the problems are based in a difference in dex. If they are low dex and you are high dex, you'll avoid the bejeezus out of them. If you have a very high dex, and the warrior also has a very high dex, they cancel out. By removing some of the bonus of high defensive dex, the minimize the amount that the difference makes. So, having a low dex doesn't actually lower (Afaik) your chances that much, except when facing people with higher dexes than you.

Sojiro:

So the current plan for dex is:

-Remove/diminish dex's effect on avoiding wound affs.
-Keep dex's effect on dealing wound affs.

Correct?

Yes. Another way of phrasing it is to keep dexterity's offensive contribution to knights and monks while removing/diminish it's defensive contribution to receiving wounds. (EDIT: I'm not sure it affects monk wounding, so this might be a knights only buff.)

I would suggest diminishing returns over all as to not completely nullify high-dexterity's benefit for defense, but it should cap off swiftly.

Don't get your knickers in a knot because someone has a different opinion to you.

Shuyin are you going to ask for a nerf without anything to balance it with? Because what will be the point of DEX for non-wounding classes if that change goes through?

Naia:

Don't get your knickers in a knot because someone has a different opinion to you.

Shuyin are you going to ask for a nerf without anything to balance it with? Because what will be the point of DEX for non-wounding classes if that change goes through?

We "got our knickers in a twist" because you were particularly vile about about "expressing your opinion".

DEX will still improve your stancing/parrying, acrobatics dodge proc rates, and possibly (according to the ABs) affect monk damage.

Naia:

Don't get your knickers in a knot because someone has a different opinion to you.

Shuyin are you going to ask for a nerf without anything to balance it with? Because what will be the point of DEX for non-wounding classes if that change goes through?

The difference between you and others is simple: you're giving opinions, they're giving arguments.

What's the point of STR for non-wounding classes? There isn't much of one, actually. But that said, it doesn't follow from, well, anything, that DEX should have a point for non-wounding classes either. The nerf, depending on how it's done, doesn't remove the point. Just makes it more balanced for everyone.

foolofsound:

We "got our knickers in a twist" because you were particularly vile about about "expressing your opinion".

DEX will still improve your stancing/parrying, acrobatics dodge proc rates, and possibly (according to the ABs) affect monk damage.

Doesn't improve acrobatics, I don't think. If it does, it's news to me. Dexterity contributes to hand actions for monks (damage and wounding then, as far as I know) while strength contributes to the kicks (again, damage and wounding).

You know, this is maybe a strange out of leftfield approach to racial balance, but here goes.

Strength is fairly easy to buff, and due to diminishing returns you can pick a race with middling strength and still buff it up to where diminishing returns really kick in, where extra strength past that point is somewhat a moot point. Then these other races that have higher strengths are do not get as much bang for the extra stat points, and pay for it by having a lower dex.

My idea is instead of messing around with stats, give these certain races a bonus perk that's gives them little extra warrior bonuses. Kind of a similar concept to some races getting a bonus of additional weapon stats, we could give a general warrior bonus to taurians etc that provide extra wounding, damage, or whatever. The idea is, the races still keep the theme of being "slow but powerful" except with another perk besides strength to add punch.

And yes, the idea is still rough and I've no specifics. I'm just throwing it out there. We could consider other bonuses to make up for low dex while still keeping the original feel of the race while making them viable.