Yeah... The problem with Continuum isn't navigating, it's finding breakpoints for melds, that's darn impossible.

foolofsound:

I particularly like Shuyin's idea; that raiders take progressively longer time delay on resurrection the more times that they die on an enemy plane in say, the past month.

I'm not as it would make smob raids harder for the attackers.

AquaNeos:

I'm not as it would make smob raids harder for the attackers.

That is true. However, if the impact of smobs being slain goes up though, that might be appropriate.

I'd actually rather have more smob raids with smaller 'impact' (but really - what's 1000 power per smob these days of 2M+ nexuses?) than once-in-a-blue-moon super-raids.

I'd actually rather have more smob raids with smaller 'impact' (but really - what's 1000 power per smob these days of 2M+ nexuses?) than once-in-a-blue-moon super-raids.

I dunno. Thematically, killing what amount to enemy deities should have a major impact. Besides, you can't mechanically can't raid them all that often.

The rewards behind smob raids really aren't worth it any more though. More for the bragging rights. Especially when people taunt you by saying that it's impossible to kill smobs now.

I'd really prefer giving smaller raids an end goal in addition to increasing time costs, not just the latter. While the latter itself is great, I imagine the admin don't want to unnecessarily stifle conflict.

So... do we all agree that we like small fights (3v3) where people actually fight and that we don't like where a zillion people camp on your plane?

Razenth:

So... do we all agree that we like small fights (3v3) where people actually fight and that we don't like where a zillion people camp on your plane?

Yes. But we also don't like when a single person can run around your plane/prime for half an hour annoying you.

Great! Because reading through this thread I was getting as lost as Estarra regarding what we were trying to fix.

Ytran:

Continuum navigation is incredibly straightforward.

I don't see what is the problem with navigating continuum either. >_> *is Celest. So no bias there.* It's really subjective I guess. Unlike many others, I actually have a more difficult time tryin' to figure out the fire plane.

In my opinion, encouraging real small-scale raids is more important than discouraging hit-and-run raids.

I think it's great to articulate the overall goals before getting into specifics.

The planar system was set up as an outlet for open PK and conflict. In other words, I wanted to make prime relatively safe by disincentiving PK there (Avenger, karma, etc.), which overall I think works as planned. However, the outer planes, I envisioned as a frontier which would act as an outlet for all the aggression and lust for PK and conflict that would naturally arise. Since there needed to be reasons to go there, that's where the focus on conflict quests was, or quests where you can actively hurt another org. Over time, the stronger orgs beat down on the weaker orgs so we put in more ways for orgs to protect "their" planes (discretionary powers, etc.).

So, I'm not sure where we are now. I certainly would not be open to increasing conflict on prime beyond the village system (which I quite like). I think it is important that the outer planes still be the primary focus for conflict because otherwise I fear conflict somehow creeping into the prime plane.

I guess the question is how to balance all that. Are there too many drawbacks for orgs by people who raid them (loss of power, too demoralizing)? If so, how to ameliorate it? If ameliorated, would there be enough incentives for planar raids? If there were no incentive to raid because there are no benefits to raiding and no benefits or losses to being raided, where would conflict go? That concerns me.

Share your thoughts!

Problem: Small raids have no mechanical objective. This means that defenders aren't invested in defending their plane, when doing so will only encourage the raiders to stay longer. Further, raiders can maintain these raids until they get bored.
Solutions:
1) Implement an objective on each plane for smaller raids to aim to accomplish, and for defenders to aim to prevent.
2) Implement features that discouage infinite raids (my suggestion is have progressively stronger invasion-esque mobs begin spawning after 1 hour of enemy presence on a plane).


Problem: Single person and micro raids often allow for hit and run attacks that serve primarily to annoy. These attacks are very difficult to stop without pouring hundreds of power into discretionaries.
Solution: Implement features that discourage easy escape from hit and run (I like Estarra's suggestion that planar eneimes not be allowed to leave for 15 minutes, preferably after the last hostile action, further, allowing planar mobs to track to these raiders would help discourage these micro-raids).

I'd really prefer a delay in resurrecting rather than stronger mobs over time.

Power is no longer an issue in the age of epic quests and extra power sources in the form of aether rings, siphoning, villages, etc. It really is a non-cost at this time, all power is used for is to serve as a battery for the next ascendant.

There is already distort (which has been buffed over and over throughout the years) to prevent escaping. There really isn't much else you can do there aside from making sure that if you raid, the only way out is to die. Which is unfair.

This is why I prefer a cooldown to entering enemied territory to begin the moment you do something aggressive within that plane. If you kick a lady and run away, you have to wait x minutes before you can do so again. This encourages raiders to stick around or else waste time.

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Now onto Estarra's thing - again, power is no longer an issue, even the much-dreaded supermob raids give such low power amounts that your effort is better spent practicing for the next revolt, flare, etc. More bang for your buck there. So I'd have to conclude that it really is all about morale.

Now, to improve morale, you need to:
1. Give both attackers and defenders a solid goal to accomplish during a raid.

IMO, people don't mind dying if they feel that it's for a greater cause. Case in point: ascension.

2. You need to ensure that the Endless Raid(tm) cannot happen.

You can do this by implementing that cooldown on re-entry or simply extending the time it takes for you to resurrect for every time you die on an enemied plane.

*waves dimensional lock idea*

On the other hand, I like how we do have free PvP areas where you can just go up and massacre someone without having to wade through a zillion rules like in Achaea. And maybe Aetolia.

foolofsound:
Problem: Single person and micro raids often allow for hit and run attacks that serve primarily to annoy. These attacks are very difficult to stop without pouring hundreds of power into discretionaries.
Solution: Implement features that discourage easy escape from hit and run (I like Estarra's suggestion that planar eneimes not be allowed to leave for 15 minutes, preferably after the last hostile action, further, allowing planar mobs to track to these raiders would help discourage these micro-raids).

Between this and Shuyin's suggestion, I'd have to go with Shuyin's. I feel as though the change recommended above will only encourage more zerg combat - if you're going to go in, there's no sense in going alone and being trapped when 10 defenders come up. While certain individuals do kick and run purely to annoy, I've done it a couple times myself in hopes of provoking a reaction from one defender who wants to duel, or two/three defenders to challenge myself.

Annoyances will be annoyances, regardless of what we do to try and curb their annoyingness, so I think Shuyin's example hurts less for people looking for legitimate small-scale PK.

Chade:

Gravity provides a delay on entering ships. It's about 4 seconds off the top of my head, wouldn't be a bad thing to move that to distort - same for ethereal archways. Doesn't need to be a long delay, just enough to make one person by themself think twice.

Gravity delay is 1-2s.

Increasing the time it takes to come back after dying on an enemy plane won't do anything if the defenders are incapable of defeating the invaders.

That's fine. It's generally not the case that you just can't kill ANYONE. It's more that you kill them and they come right back, so you can't actually 'defeat' them, because they aren't trying anything. Defeat condition is 'get bored'. With that sort of change, you could get ahead by sniping away their combatants slowly.

Kiradawea:

Increasing the time it takes to come back after dying on an enemy plane won't do anything if the defenders are incapable of defeating the invaders.

If that's the case, then the defenders just don't come back, and that's that.