What an odd argument. Should we balance every skill around that concept, that changing the strength of one guild not only shifts the general power of their nation (which we do somewhat take into account) but every single other archetype as a whole?

Honestly, the illusion argument is a bit silly. Any illusion that is ruined by an aff line is probably not an illusion that can't be accounted for with simple scripting anyway. For instance, if I see an illusion that Ixion hit me with slitthroat, a quick 'say oh :censor:' tells me 100% for sure if I have slitthroat or not.

Sidd:

Honestly, the illusion argument is a bit silly. Any illusion that is ruined by an aff line is probably not an illusion that can't be accounted for with simple scripting anyway. For instance, if I see an illusion that Ixion hit me with slitthroat, a quick 'say oh :censor:' tells me 100% for sure if I have slitthroat or not.

While I do(did) make ample use of certain illusions to great effect, it is pretty easy to script around them. In a 1v1 setting, I can ignore between 90%-100% of all a TP or TKs illusions if I wanted to, without turning off any triggers. Against a bard using illusions, would be a bit different, but not overly difficult.

Since when is it odd to take everything into account? I believe I very clearly said that I was talking about group combat here, and if you all aren't capable of seeing the potential illussions have, well...whatever then.

The Ixion example is just that. An example. If you don't like it, come up with your own.

And let's not be narrowminded here. From an on-paper standpoint, it's easy to script around illusions. Realistically, however, it's not. Especially when you're intelligent enough to illusion the lines of the same skills/lines that can come from the people in the same room as you, including yourself. Tell me, anyone, how to code this:

Actual chasm line in a geomancer's meld
Illussion chasm line in a gemoancer's meld

Going back to the Ixion example above:

Ixion in the room, hitting you for slitthroat
Ixion in the room, hitting on you and the illussion of slitthroat.

Even if you take a moment to diag, that's a moment that you've been off bal/eq and were hindered.

I'm not arguing that this nerfs other archetypes directly. I am arguing that this affects the role and power of the intelligent, competent, imaginitive illusioners within group fights.

Since when is it odd to take everything into account? I believe I very clearly said that I was talking about group combat here, and if you all aren't capable of seeing the potential illussions have, well...whatever then.

The Ixion example is just that. An example. If you don't like it, come up with your own.

And let's not be narrowminded here. From an on-paper standpoint, it's easy to script around illusions. Realistically, however, it's not. Especially when you're intelligent enough to illusion the lines of the same skills/lines that can come from the people in the same room as you, including yourself. Tell me, anyone, how to code this:

Actual chasm line in a geomancer's meld
Illussion chasm line in a gemoancer's meld

Going back to the Ixion example above:

Ixion in the room, hitting you for slitthroat
Ixion in the room, hitting on you and the illussion of slitthroat.

Even if you take a moment to diag, that's a moment that you've been off bal/eq and were hindered.

I'm not arguing that this nerfs other archetypes directly. I am arguing that this affects the role and power of the intelligent, competent, imaginitive illusioners within group fights.


Those are easy really, I already pointed out how to get by slitthroat without diag, a simple 'say oh man' and bam you know 100% for sure whether you are slitthroat or not, takes as fast as your ping to figure out.

Chasm is also easy, is the mage sitting there doing nothing? Is he actively trying stuff? Lets also take into consideration that being chasmed doesn't come with an affliction line, which is what this discussion is all about.

No one said that illusions aren't powerful, I just said that any illusion that is destroyed because of an affliction line probably isn't a worthwhile illusion anyway, and thus not really a big nerf.

Clever Illusionists exist? The most clever I see are greenlock programmeds., which aren't exactly groundbreaking

Sojiro:

Clever Illusionists exist? The most clever I see are greenlock programmeds., which aren't exactly groundbreaking

I find that anything beyond programmed illusions don't do much for combat.

Yep, exactly.

Which is why I don't understand the big deal about illusions being nerfed further, since Lusternia doesn't rely on it to begin with.

Not many IRE's are dependent on illusions as a big part of their offense. It's mostly just Achaea, maybe Imperian.

Hey you! *poke Sojiro*

Wouldn't a simple "Have I been damaged?" check pretty much destroy every Knight illusion too? That is, unless you have a rune of absorption, but then you can simply check for that line instead (and any illusion with the rune-line in it would be a pretty dead giveaway to people without a rune).

Ssaliss:

Wouldn't a simple "Have I been damaged?" check pretty much destroy every Knight illusion too? That is, unless you have a rune of absorption, but then you can simply check for that line instead (and any illusion with the rune-line in it would be a pretty dead giveaway to people without a rune).

You would think so, but nobody checks for that.

Because recklessness. I guess you could still check, but eh.

And as for programmable long illusions, wouldn't it be possible (albeit perhaps a bit clunky) to check if it's even possible for it to happen? For instance, if more than one person acts against you between two prompts, it's an illusion (even in the middle of spam, I've never seen two people hit the same person between two prompts). And if it's the same person, is the combination possible (for instance, a Geo webbing you and chasming you in the same instance is pretty impossible, I think). Combine it, and that should be a pretty good defense against any kind of affliction-illusions, aff-lines or no aff-lines.

Ssaliss:

And as for programmable long illusions, wouldn't it be possible (albeit perhaps a bit clunky) to check if it's even possible for it to happen? For instance, if more than one person acts against you between two prompts, it's an illusion (even in the middle of spam, I've never seen two people hit the same person between two prompts). And if it's the same person, is the combination possible (for instance, a Geo webbing you and chasming you in the same instance is pretty impossible, I think). Combine it, and that should be a pretty good defense against any kind of affliction-illusions, aff-lines or no aff-lines.

It actually is possible to get two attacks between the same two prompts. But it requires some weird/perfect timing to pull off.

Hmm. I've never seen it myself, but I'll take your word for it. And as for recklessness and checking knight afflictions, that'd require you to have recklessness, or for them to toss in a recklessness line in the illusion. And if they toss in a recklessness line, you'd have to be on full health, mana and ego (which is pretty unlikely in combat) or that illusion would be busted too.

Disclaimer: I'm not a combatant. I'd like to be, but I don't yet have a working system. This post is largly me trying to clarify the argument here in my own head (I.e. I'm not claiming to know anything and the following may be a blatant misunderstanding of what is happening).

As far as I can tell, the argument against adding standardised affliction lines is that it will nerf Illusions. But only against those who are able (and can be bothered) to collect all the lines to detect illusions easier. And by nerf, it sounds more like illusionists can't be bothered to figure out ways around the system as it would be. Surely there would have to be some way.

i.e. Those who are already good at combat will get a slight bonus against illusions, while those unable to participate in combat at all will be able to participate fairly easily.

The argument then makes the judgement that demolishing the mountain that is barring entrance to combat for me and everyone like me is not worth the price of this (slight?) nerf.

Is that about right?

That's the argument against putting the lines in, yes.

I'm not really convinced by it myself.

Personally, I'm very surprised the argument about illusions and aff-messages only started appearing just now. Aff-messages have existed for a very long time now (over two years, in fact; look at announce #1458), but before now, I don't think anyone has made any arguments regarding illusions. This, at least to me, indicates that illusions are not, in fact, helplessly broken by aff-messages.

Ssaliss:

Personally, I'm very surprised the argument about illusions and aff-messages only started appearing just now. Aff-messages have existed for a very long time now (over two years, in fact; look at announce #1458), but before now, I don't think anyone has made any arguments regarding illusions. This, at least to me, indicates that illusions are not, in fact, helplessly broken by aff-messages.

Aff-messages were intentionally not fully implemented because they would 'break illusions'. The argument's been around longer than aff-messages have existed.

Actually, I think I had this discussion earlier, but if not publicly, I know I discussed it briefly with Malarious.

To anyone whinging about how comprehensive aff messages would break illusions, a simple fix can be added:

WEAVE ILLUSION // (include afflictions separated by commas)
This would display the illusion, and if the target has affmessages configed to on will also display the intended afflictions. (max 2 or 3 affs)

ex: weave illusion Ciaran kisses you on the cheek. // peace
shows: Ciaran kisses you on the cheek.
You are afflicted with peace.

Solves the illusion argument.

Either way, I'm in full support of adding systematic affmessage displays in order to make system building much more simplified.

If the admin are willing to do it, I also support a complete server side curing system (that fully cures). Implementation would definitely be difficult (extremely), as I see customize-able queues being necessary, and difficulty with managing masked afflictions. Still, it would potentially lower the bar for entry combat, but not really affect top tier combat. I think it'd be great for the game for everyone to not get trashed just by not having a top-notch system. I don't see it taking away from the depth of mechanics within the game either.

/read: not dying to write another combat system