rika:


This is exactly what I mean when I say the Lusternian playerbase has no self restraint. One side will always try to do everything they can to make the other side know that they are on top, because that is fun for them. They don't care what the losing side thinks. Adding more conflict mechanics with a "point" will not do anything for the current situation, except fuel the egos of one half of this game even further. People aren't going to stop with the pointless raids. In fact, they will do it more, because as soon as the losing side tries to take part in the new conflict, it automatically triggers within the winning side the idea that the losing side is enjoying taking the beating. Just look at the current raid situation. I haven't logged in much at all, but every single time I have logged in, there is a raid going on, all because the losing side took the bold move of raiding back.

I'm not just talking about how things are now. Even when Serenwilde was on top, things were the same (though one could argue it's pretty much the same people).

Nothing you said is absolutely true. You assume that the 'winning' side hosts a sea of egos who care for nothing other than causing the other side misery. As someone mentioned here, I think that if there's an issue, its with both sides. Losers that don't know how to lose and winners who keep winning. In Lusternia, it appears the winners will continue such a trend because the players involved have invested a lot of time, effort and much enjoyment and satisfaction often stems from being able to pull together and get things done. You can't ask competent players to stop being 'good' at what they do. I guess no more than you can stop the losers from whining. Sure, there's a few meanies in the mix here and there but those sorts are on all sides and nothing near Narsrim-esque levels.

You do not know what every player is feeling or thinking. I don't think anyone believes that the losing side enjoys a beating as its often expressed on forums.

rika:


This is exactly what I mean when I say the Lusternian playerbase has no self restraint. One side will always try to do everything they can to make the other side know that they are on top, because that is fun for them. They don't care what the losing side thinks. Adding more conflict mechanics with a "point" will not do anything for the current situation, except fuel the egos of one half of this game even further. People aren't going to stop with the pointless raids. In fact, they will do it more, because as soon as the losing side tries to take part in the new conflict, it automatically triggers within the winning side the idea that the losing side is enjoying taking the beating. Just look at the current raid situation. I haven't logged in much at all, but every single time I have logged in, there is a raid going on, all because the losing side took the bold move of raiding back.

I'm not just talking about how things are now. Even when Serenwilde was on top, things were the same (though one could argue it's pretty much the same people).

I disagree entirely for the reasons I've already pointed out. You are entitled to your own opinion of course, but since you've joined in with the rest of complacent Serenwilde, you'll probably just continue to whine here on the forums instead of doing anything to change the current situation. It's not easy, but it's doable and you are incredibly capable of doing so if you chose to take a deep breath, crack 'em knuckles and get to business.

I have no idea who the same people that Rika mentioned are. It must be Nejii.

Talk about pointless. I didn't think she was trying to throw blame on you guys there, and it seems like you've taken it as if she was, and always will.

I'm just going to reiterate things that I and others have said already: I like this concept, but if it doesn't outright mechanically replace raiding it doesn't fix any of the problems it is intended to. In that event, it'll just be one more thing that a winning side can repeatedly steamroll on their way to doing hit and runs, or from pointless raiding. That's not to say that this winning side is YOU, or will always be you, but that it will be a problem whoever that side is. As in, if it had been Serenwilde back in the day when Serenwilde was uber-winning, and this was introduced, it'd be the exact same issue.

Enyalida:

Talk about pointless. I didn't think she was trying to throw blame on you guys there, and it seems like you've taken it as if she was, and always will.

I'm just going to reiterate things that I and others have said already: I like this concept, but if it doesn't outright mechanically replace raiding it doesn't fix any of the problems it is intended to. In that event, it'll just be one more thing that a winning side can repeatedly steamroll on their way to doing hit and runs, or from pointless raiding. That's not to say that this winning side is YOU, or will always be you, but that it will be a problem whoever that side is. As in, if it had been Serenwilde back in the day when Serenwilde was uber-winning, and this was introduced, it'd be the exact same issue.

No one said anything about blaming, I simply disagreed with her. She said that people don't show 'self-restraint' which I've stated in previous posts that it's not the case and people in general try to show restraint, myself included. I've agreed with you about this current idea, I don't agree with Rika and I really do feel that she's on the complacent 'whine until it's changed' ship. Of course I'm a big bad Glom without a clue so the complacent people will continue to think they are right and we are big bullies and will continue to do nothing and whine about things not being better.

Malicia:

Nothing you said is absolutely true. You assume that the 'winning' side hosts a sea of egos who care for nothing other than causing the other side misery. As someone mentioned here, I think that if there's an issue, its with both sides. Losers that don't know how to lose and winners who keep winning. In Lusternia, it appears the winners will continue such a trend because the players involved have invested a lot of time, effort and much enjoyment and satisfaction often stems from being able to pull together and get things done. You can't ask competent players to stop being 'good' at what they do. I guess no more than you can stop the losers from whining. Sure, there's a few meanies in the mix here and there but those sorts are on all sides and nothing near Narsrim-esque levels.

You do not know what every player is feeling or thinking. I don't think anyone believes that the losing side enjoys a beating as its often expressed on forums.

No. This isn't about orgs who are winning conflicts. Sure, you can claim being competent and hardworking and whatever other self-embellishment you want. Unfortunately it doesn't take much to pick on weaker orgs, especially during times that you know they don't have their core fighting population online to drive you away. Nothing about that takes any level of competence or 'hard-work', and what Rika is saying here has NOTHING to do with 'losers whining because they just suck'.


Edit: By the way, I'm not saying -you're- doing it, I'm saying that that is what she is talking about because it seems like that's flying over some heads.

Rivius:

Edit: By the way, I'm not saying -you're- doing it, I'm saying that that is what she is talking about because it seems like that's flying over some heads.

rika:


This is exactly what I mean when I say the Lusternian playerbase has no self restraint.

Sounds like she's blaming everyone on the winning side with that comment, just saying

Well, I did say -I- in that sentence, mostly to clarify and avoid the imminent vitriol...
-puts on acid suit-

the winning side is the entire Lusternian playerbase? Show some restraint =/

I can comprehend well and it just comes off as condemnation of players with no real basis or merit. Just her own personal and inaccurate opinion.

Edit: Hi Revan.

Malicia:

You do not know what every player is feeling or thinking.

As you YOU, little fishy... I'm inside your miiiind O_O

It is very hard to "take a deep breath, crack 'em knuckles and get to business," when fighting back only makes your enemies raid more often. Sometimes it feels like running from an angry dog; you're just making it worse.

To throw in my two cents on the actual topic, though. I like the theory behind the idea, but disagree that it will accomplish anything. Upkeeping the existing conflict mechanics is tiring enough. There's nothing I hate more than being unable to play the way I want for two hours, because somebody else decided now was a good time raid/absolve. Village revolts happen with enough rarity to be exciting and fun, as do aether flares. But having to deal with them both sometimes feels like too much for me. Domoths are x10 worse, both because of the frequency, and because one side can choose to initiate when the other can't do anything about it. Please don't add to the things we 'have' to do to feel any sort of sense of accomplishment.

I thought the recent Justice - War domoth series of events was a decent example that doesn't show self-restraint.

The thing is, as a tactic it sure works, because a lot of people seem to get disheartened and give up so fast.

Are you saying that winning a good number of fights was disheartening?

To be honest, judging by everyone's posts, there is no easily discernible line between 'lack of self-restraint' and 'proper conflict'.

For instance, some people view breaking into guildhalls/special areas/etc as a lack of self-restraint, but I think that's just one of the things an enemy does.

If you add this on top of the trouble of having to distinguish between criticism and whining, well it's no wonder no one is ever satisfied on either the player or admin side.

I'm just not getting the 'self-restraint' part that's being complained about in the Justice - War Domoth things.

Was it that we kept coming back when we died? Were we supposed to give up after a round or two of losses?

Were we not supposed to do what the Domoths are designed for and fight at all?

Is nobody ever supposed to use the absolve mechanic?

What're you even referring to? :|

He's probably referring to Celest raiding their territories while the majority of their forces were busy taking the domoth.

It's like there was a rule that said no raids should happen while domothing or something.

Personally, I just thought of that as a two-pronged attack of sorts. Or a bait and switch or some other amusing tactic.

Let's try to keep this thread on topic rather than branching out into self-restraint and griefing and whatnot. I suggest making a new topic if you want to discuss that.

I was going to post something here, but eh. Nothing will change either side's opinion, so no point to it.

Edit: I've put in few thoughts on last page or so, but its been pretty much buried in the off-topic posts I think.

Sojiro:
To be honest, judging by everyone's posts, there is no easily discernible line between 'lack of self-restraint' and 'proper conflict'.

That's what I was trying to say earlier but better. D:

I'm not sure what else can be said about dharma/lockout. People have gone over it pretty good. The lockout is just going to a huge hinderance to all kinds of raids, not just the hit and run. So if that's the direction the admin wants to go... otherwise it's a bad idea. Probably better to leave things alone.