Again, you're not buying credits, you're buying crates. They're not actually selling you credits for 30k gold. If you keep equating credits to crates, you're pretty much equating a guarantee (credits) and a gamble (crates/casks), which are obviously not the same thing.

In fact, it's been about 4 hours since the announce and nearly 10 of both casks and crates are already sold. There's certainly people who don't feel they're a ripoff, and it's clearly taking gold (the same gold which led us into the super expensive credits mess in the first place) out of the economy.

Shuyin... you're basically saying that $20 is not $20 (well, crates are 23, but whatever). Your logic is horrendously flawed. If crates did not have a dollar value attached to them, then yes, credits would not have a crate equivalency... but since BOTH OF THEM HAVE DOLLAR VALUES, they can be DIRECTLY compared and equated with one another. There's no other way of spelling it out... this is how the world of exchange works.

If 800 yen = $1 and $1 = 2 pounds... then 800 yen = 2 pounds
if 50cr = $20 and $20 = 1 crate... 50cr = 1 crate.

Does this clear things up?

Credits and crates and houses and cars and apples and sandwiches can be given dollar values, sure, but that is not a defining feature of them. Currency can be converted because the sole defining feature of currency is the ability to trade it for goods or services. You cannot buy crates with apples, or houses with credits, or cars with sandwiches, ergo they do not simply take on whatever value is given to them - they are not currency, and ergo not comparable. Otherwise, those would all be valid, if in cases horrendously logistically awful, transactions. But they're not, unless there's some awesome car lot somewhere dealing exclusively in apples.

I'm simply baffled that you don't understand simple logic... I really am. Any item can be traded for anything. Everything in this world is potential currency. Remember, we once traded x amount of chickens for x horses. We may not use such a bartering system in our current world, but the logic behind it still holds true for all things. Equivalent exchange... there's no going around it, Ytran. If two items share an identical value scale, then they can be directly compared. I'm not sure why you keep trying to refute logic. Next you'll tell me 1+1 = 3 :P

That or you guys are being the most massive trolls ever

I understand your logic. But the thing is.

Just because the supermarket sells apples for a dollar each, and oranges for two dollars each, doesn't mean the supermarket will take all those oranges you had laying around at a rate of two apples for an orange.

shrug.. but I'm sure that people would totally trade crates for credits. It's all about willingness

Except that nothing has an inherent monetary value. All values applied to anything in terms of currency is wholly arbitrary.

If we want to follow your approach, where money is directly equivalent to the value of some thing, you very quickly run into problems. For examples, using credits and artefact packages, since they're relevant to the conversation's context moreso than ephemeral ideas of apple cars:

For $299.99, one can buy 1000 credits from the website. Ergo, a credit costs 30 cents.

Now, also for $299.99, one can buy the Indiscriminate Body artefact package, the artefacts in which sum to 1500 credits. Ergo, a credit costs 20 cents.

Alternatively, if you want to look at the converse (or is it the contrapositive? I never remember which is which), you can buy 1000 credits for $299.99 (credit == 30 cents), or the Home & Garden artefact package (value 1000cr) for $199.99 (credit == 20 cents).

But wait! They cost the same amount of money! How can they have different values? It's because currency is arbitrary and is entirely separate from any actual value of the service or good being purchased. This is entirely fundamental to currency systems, and directly implies that currency does not reflect any inherent value of an object.

Ok.. point to you.

You're missing an important point here though Revan, the return on crates is I believe approximately 2:1 in terms of value over credit packages which cost a similar amount (i.e. one $23 crate is worth around 100-110 credits on average) - which means that if you wanted to do a direct comparison to credit market you'd have to take that into account - making it around 15,000 gold per credit. Then add in the risk element and you're on to a bit of a winner really, it's a fantastic goldsink which will hopefully bring down the cost of the credit market given time and it has the chance of giving you much more if you're lucky.

Some people buy crates for the curios, just saying.

maybe there should be a crate that is just curios then.

I bet lots of people would buy that.

I bought one of those crates for 1.5 million gold. I actually ended up with a dagger of reincarnation and golden paintbrush from it.

These are Glevich's winnings after 80 spins:

2 vial artifacts

700 lessons
54 creds
106 bound
177 dings
302,640 gold
5 days of True Favor
5 clovers
277 oolongtea, 121 fruit, 96 rope
several experience gains as well

edit:
for the 70 USD package.
54 credits and 2 vial artifacts that are 80 credits, so that's around 45 USD? Actually, taking everything in toll, the only profitable thing was the credits, bound, and dings. The rest seem a bit useless, if you are omni trans for instance. Or if you don't use those comms. Or if you are an influencer, or if you already reach cap charisma for instance, the tf isn't of much use except for the other stats.

So as far as the ideas are for alternatives of the true favor and clovers, what is the drop rate of credits and dingbats compared to previously? 10% or so? Can that be moved up a little bit as well to 20 or 25% of what it previously was? Or that the rate of artifacts dropping be increased a little bit?

Or remove the dropping of comms entirely, or making the drops from the wheel change depending on the person spinning? Some people could use the clovers more than others, or influencing buffs. For example, level 1 seduction buff, or weakening, or empowering.

Last remark. I know these winnings still make a profit compared to the 70 USD spent, but it still feels like a pittance.

how about replacing the clover with a chance of a (bubblix of popularity, kiss of the fates, finger of the fates, tonic, or something else..)

700 lessons = 116 credits (rounding down).
54 unbound credits.
106 bound credits.
177 dingbats (admin treat these as a 1:1 ratio for credits).

So that's a grand total of... 453 credits.

A quick glance at Lusternia's site shows me:
400 Credits $139.99

I'm not sure how that's a pittance. :|

And I am not even counting the gold!

i'm saying it's a pittance compared to what it was before.

Xenthos:

700 lessons = 116 credits (rounding down).
54 unbound credits.
106 bound credits.
177 dingbats (admin treat these as a 1:1 ratio for credits).

So that's a grand total of... 453 credits.

A quick glance at Lusternia's site shows me:
400 Credits $139.99

I'm not sure how that's a pittance. :|

And I am not even counting the gold!

Or the two vial artifacts, which by Falcon's own estimate brings the total up to more than 600 credits. Or, if this person is omnitrans and doesn't find lessons to be worth anything, it at least leaves it at a little over 500 credits.

Not every spin is supposed to be amazing. As you have demonstrated, however, cumulatively things add up nicely, even for people only interested in credits, dingbats and artifacts.

I just don't see the point in tailoring the wheel personally to you, when yes, it is supposed to be something of a gamble. Especially not when that could easily lead to its own sort of inequality, due to people with more stuff getting better rewards because they can't "use" the lesser ones, while newer characters who can use things like experience and clovers still get it. It also doesn't make a ton of sense for the wheel to detect your experience gain preference, and having people somehow input that into their spin seems needlessly complicated.

As the clover thing seems to be universal across ire, I'd be surprised if it got replaced by artifacts that already have a chance of showing up.

I'll admit it would be kind of nice if the clover spin added a leaf onto someone's lucky clover, meaning that they could at least get to choose when they wanted to use it.. Influencing buffs, at least for charity and empowering which seem to be the most common, would also be kind of cool.

The comms come from presents, and so have the same chance of being comms, vials, artis that presents have seperate from the wheel.

@ Falcon since he posted while I was typing: if getting more than twice what you paid for is a "pittance" then I'm a little disturbed to think how badly the wheel needed that nerf.

Falcon:

i'm saying it's a pittance compared to what it was before.

What it was before was absolutely bonkers.

It's most definitely not a pittance now! I did not count the two vial runes, which make the spins much more than a 2x value.

Be happy with getting really good rewards for the investment. Sheesh.

Aithera:

I'll admit it would be kind of nice if the clover spin added a leaf onto someone's lucky clover, meaning that they could at least get to choose when they wanted to use it.

This would be would be totally great. It could even create a clover if the person didn't own one (on theme for St. Paddy's Day, too!).

I bought some crates with gold, so -any- lessons or credits or dingbats I gained from them is an amazing boon, truthfully. I think I hit a rather unlucky streak and more than half my spins gave me plain old xp gain, but like I say, I can't really complain. I'm mostly in it for the curios, so I am saving most of those for trade, which naturally lessens my gain overall. I wish people wouldn't bitch and moan and bottom-line the heck out of the wheel. Its purpose is fun, not profit (though it is also profitable).