There's a difference between protecting powers from dropping and being able to call them back up immediately in the middle of battle.

1 is supposed to protect against the latter, not so much the former. IMO, to fight the former, that's where the cooldown/one power at a time comes in that rewards actually succeeding in defiling -and- makes things much less worse.

Wait confused now.

1 Looked like it was talking about protecting shrine powers, which is what we were talking about. Are we talking about the same 1?

1. Requiring full sanctifications for rooms before powers may take effect nullifies the current tactic of "one sanc and go", where the user runs around (while the enemy, who is defiling, is under gravity/etc) and sanctifies a cleared room once, then immediately leaves to sanctify an adjacent one, essentially making it nearly impossible for the defilers to get ahead of the sanctifier in order to destroy the shrine.

We are, but I'm not sure what's unclear about what 1 is supposed to do.

Right now, all you need to do is get 15 rooms for invasion. It doesn't matter how sanctified those 15 are, so long as you have 15 rooms.

The change makes it so you need 15 rooms -and- 100% for each of those 15 rooms. This makes it so you can't run around sancing 1 room at a time (faster than the defilers) and then having someone immediately call powers the moment you have the required number of sanced rooms (which you will have since one sanc and go is faster than defiling). This will be impossible.

It's not very effective in preventing one sanc and go as far as protecting the effects from going down to begin with, but again, that's where I say that not having to worry about invasion/distort/wrath (which the suggestions will cover) helps a lot as far as chasing down the one-sanc-and-goer. And if you do succeed, which is possible even now, then the cooldown helps solidify the progress you have made.

1 isn't supposed to hand you the victory on a platter if you started defiling, all it does it give you a bit of a leg up.

Kay, that sounds good to me then.

I don't really agree that they are overpowered.

I also don't agree that shrines and orders have no RP value. I am the Avatar of Nocht who awoke Mother Night and it's part of my Order to work to further Glomdoring, if I can use a shrine to win a domoth that will benefit Glomdoring, then it's encouraged by my RP to do so. We are to serve Glomdoring, by whatever means we have. I realize this doesn't apply to all Orders, but I bet my order isn't the only one.

People make it sound like shrines are an easy button to win. I don't agree that's the case either. Otherwise, why did team B(adass) lose Harmony, they got a shrine up, got effects going and even defiled down the opponent shrine, yet they still didn't win it. It wasn't even a numbers game, I've heard something along the lines of 7 A's to 9 B's. That's pretty even.

Which leads me to my next point, I think Shrines are the great equalizer. They even up the odds and force your team to be more coordinated, otherwise you get slaughtered. For example, We stole beauty from Hallifax with only half the numbers. In contrast, the also makes it increasingly difficult to win if you are shorthanded to begin with, but even then, a shrine isn't a guranteed win. The Harmony steal attempt on Crum for instance, we got a shrine up first, but had no organization, and we got slaughtered for it. It wasn't even close to a victory.

I like 1), 100% sanced before it counts for powers. If any of them go through, I really hope it's this one. The other two solutions just make it easier to combat shrines, but I don't think they are really needed.

I honestly don't get how an even fight of 7v7 can still be even when one side has shrines up, especially when you go on to say that "they even up the odds". Anything that "evens up the odds" obviously becomes problematic when you actually have even or close-to-even fights. Let alone uneven ones. Goodness.

Rivius:

I honestly don't get how an even fight of 7v7 is still even when one side has shrines up, especially when you go on to say that "they even up the odds". Anything that "evens up the odds" obviously becomes problematic when you actually have even or close to even fights. Let alone uneven ones. Goodness.

Excepting where it's said in the 7-9 fight, the 9 had the shrine (at one points) and still lost.

It makes you have to work more, it's not game-over.

Sidd:

I also don't agree that shrines and orders have no RP value. I am the Avatar of Nocht who awoke Mother Night and it's part of my Order to work to further Glomdoring, if I can use a shrine to win a domoth that will benefit Glomdoring, then it's encouraged by my RP to do so. We are to serve Glomdoring, by whatever means we have. I realize this doesn't apply to all Orders, but I bet my order isn't the only one.

Oh? And it's part of Nocht's RP to rain destruction down upon his enemies (Wrath), summon up hordes of fiends (Invasion), hinder his foes with unsubtle gravity control (Gravity)? The only shrine power truly appropriate to Nocht is Distortion, to seal away his foe's powers and cut off their retreats.

The only RP I hear in your argument is, "I like to win. Winning is everything"

]

Rivius:

I honestly don't get how an even fight of 7v7 can still be even when one side has shrines up, especially when you go on to say that "they even up the odds". Anything that "evens up the odds" obviously becomes problematic when you actually have even or close-to-even fights. Let alone uneven ones. Goodness.

Did you read what I posted?

'In contrast, the also makes it increasingly difficult to win if you are shorthanded to begin with, but even then, a shrine isn't a guranteed win.'

at this point, it's unrealistic to expect anyone to not put up a shrine, no matter the numbers. We did that once and got a gravityboot to the face, so we won't do it again. I don't expect team B to do it again either.

@fool -- ummm yes, it is. It's completely within Nocht's RP to destroy his enemies and the enemies of Glomdoring, maybe you don't know as much about Nocht as you think you do. I don't really understand why you would even try to argue that

Xenthos:

Excepting where it's said in the 7-9 fight, the 9 had the shrine (at one points) and still lost.

It makes you have to work more, it's not game-over.

We're talking generalizations here. The occurrence of the 9+shrine losing against the 7 would indicate to me that the 7 in question were Shuyin, Viynain, Sidd, Vadi, you, Malarious, and Celina and the 9 were Morbo, Shedrin, Lehki, and half a dozen noobs or some otherwise inequitable division of the teams. Has it happened where the lower-man team has an awesome day and the higher man team had a terrible one and things didn't work out as expected? Yes. Is it the rule? No. Don't cite flukes as evidence please. kthx

Talan:

We're talking generalizations here. The occurrence of the 9+shrine losing against the 7 would indicate to me that the 7 in question were Shuyin, Viynain, Sidd, Vadi, you, Malarious, and Celina and the 9 were Morbo, Shedrin, Lehki, and half a dozen noobs or some otherwise inequitable division of the teams. Has it happened where the lower-man team has an awesome day and the higher man team had a terrible one and things didn't work out as expected? Yes. Is it the rule? No. Don't cite flukes as evidence please. kthx

Except that it's happened numerous times, thus it's not a fluke. I wasn't even there, I heard about it.

I'm just saying don't be disingenuous. You know very well they provide a huge advantage.

Also, you're wrong about them being an equalizer. Equalizers are things that put everyone on an even footing - bringing low and high to a middle ground. Shrines are a boost. They can elevate a lesser group to be on par, and they can also elevate a greater group to be effectively invincible.

Anyway, three pages in and glom is defending it's culture of superiority to the hilt, and that's cool, but I'll just drop my two cents and go...

I'd like to see the mechanism become an org mechanism, separated from the order mechanism.

As for limiting their powers, I can think up a dozen situations where something would be valid-use for every nerf suggested. I really wish that players would take it upon themselves to be more sparing with shrine use. Delport Conventions - we can make this happen.

Sidd:

Except that it's happened numerous times, thus it's not a fluke. I wasn't even there, I heard about it.

I know more than a few combatants that just give up and go away if the shrine is in effect. I refuse to fight under enemy gravity. I find it makes combat tedious and unfun.

I would be perfectly content with shrines as is if gravity went away.

Sidd:

@fool -- ummm yes, it is. It's completely within Nocht's RP to destroy his enemies and the enemies of Glomdoring, maybe you don't know as much about Nocht as you think you do. I don't really understand why you would even try to argue that

"Known as an extremely shy, soft spoken member of the Sixth Circle"
Yup. Sounds like a god that would rain overt destruction on his foes.
It's really easy to justify metagaming in terms of RP, if you only ignore the most central concepts!

Talan:

I'm just saying don't be disingenuous. You know very well they provide a huge advantage.

Yes, but I don't think they are overpowered. If it wasn't an advantage, why would I say that they can equalize numbers and make it even more difficult if you are on the shorthanded side. I just said they have been and can be overcome in their current form.

foolofsound:

I know more than a few combatants that just give up and go away if the shrine is in effect. I refuse to fight under enemy gravity. I find it makes combat tedious and unfun.

I would be perfectly content with shrines as is if gravity went away.

I don't really understand it, I know Enyalida went on a big tirade earlier, but going off her squall example, I don't think it's a big deal to wait one second to move back into the fight. Yes team A has the advantage of not waiting a second, but 1 second isn't into the OP range. Reality/Land can be a lot rougher because it moves you multiple rooms, but then again, they cost more power.

I imagine people would pitch a fit if gravity went away re: raid defense.

Talan:

I'm just saying don't be disingenuous. You know very well they provide a huge advantage.

I feel it goes both ways. Sure, they provide an advantage. So do other things. The presence of a shrine does not guarantee victory, as has been demonstrated quite a few times (though sure, the advantage given is significant).

A shrine alone isn't going to win the fight, and a lesser group can win in it if they have better co-ordination / cohesiveness. The shrine makes mistakes far more fatal.

Also, I was not present in that fight either.

Sidd:

For example, We stole beauty from Hallifax with only half the numbers.

BALANCE.

If you don't think that having a 1 second delay on all movements (including climb down from treelife) with the large list of costless or near costless movers on all sides of any possible combination of alliances or lack thereof, and the HUGE emphasis in group combat on 'divide-to-conquer' tactics, is not a big deal, we're not talking about the same game.

Again, shrines don't make or break a fight, but the presence of a single effect on the battlefield drastically shears combat towards the holding side. I don't think it's alright to have such potent effects being flung around. We use it to devastating effect in defense, but I still would rather it just not be around. If you want to keep it for defense, move it to a defensive shrine and limit where you can put those shrines.

Enyalida:


BALANCE.

If you don't think that having a 1 second delay on all movements (including climb down from treelife) with the large list of costless or near costless movers on all sides of any possible combination of alliances or lack thereof, and the HUGE emphasis in group combat on 'divide-to-conquer' tactics, is not a big deal, we're not talking about the same game.

I don't think it's OP or as bad as you are making it out to be. It's the same argument everyone used against squall to get it a power cost (which didn't change anything about the skill). It's ridiculous to think that you shouldn't be responsible or aware enough to move back into a fight or regroup or whatever. If that takes no time or a 1 sec delay, it's up to you to be aware. Is it an advantage? Of course, and it's a big advantage, but it's not even close to being OP.

It was mostly reality that messed them up on that one. We could go pick them off easily without them being able to escape, and they had a hell of a time trying to regroup.

If you want to nerf gravity without changing it too much, make it so raising it prevents invasion/wrath from going up, and make it impossible to raise gravity if either of those are active. Gravity is really at its worst when you're stuck on an angry mob cluster and taking passive damage.