I honestly have to post twice, just due to the shock experienced when you state that Greece is not viewed as (and taught as) a place which shaped much of the world as we know it today. It is discussed far more than, say, Lesotho.

People go to Greece to see statues and visit the Parthenon, not to read its books. It's valued culturally because it's old.

So you can give Glomdoring, Seren, Celest, and Magnagora and award for being old and having more history.

The cultural center is a prize to represent cultural activity though. When they give out the Pulitzer they don't have current works compete against every work ever written. They just compare current works.

You're basically arguing that we should make Aristotle's books candidates to win a Pulitzer.

Deschain:

People go to Greece to see statues and visit the Parthenon, not to read its books. It's valued culturally because it's old.

So you can give Glomdoring, Seren, Celest, and Magnagora and award for being old and having more history.

The cultural center is a prize to represent cultural activity though. When they give out the Pulitzer they don't have current works compete against every work ever written. They just compare current works.

You're basically arguing that we should make Aristotle's books candidates to win a Pulitzer.

The Pulitzer (or any awarded prize) = Prestige. I am not arguing that. I'm not sure how you can even make that claim, because I've never said a word about posthumously giving awards to works that have already been critically examined and discussed in-depth by many others over hundreds / thousands of years, to the point where it would be rather silly to try to give it something.

I am arguing that Aristotle's works (amongst others!) count as cultural works. Note that I am not talking about going to Greece, I am talking learning about Greece. This includes its architecture, sure. It is not limited to that, however. At least, it was not in the school I went to.

Just because they're more than 50 years old, they haven't magically become irrelevant and of zero value.

Xenthos:

The Pulitzer (or any awarded prize) = Prestige. I am not arguing that. I'm not sure how you can even make that claim, because I've never said a word about posthumously giving awards to works that have already been critically examined and discussed in-depth by many others, to the point where it would be rather silly to try to give it something.

I am arguing that Aristotle's works (amongst others!) count as cultural works. Note that I am not talking about going to Greece, I am talking learning about Greece. This includes its architecture, sure. It is not limited to that, however.

Just because they're more than 50 years old, they haven't magically become irrelevant and of zero value.

I think you want the cultural center prize to mean something the designers of the game don't want it to mean. They want it to be like a Pulitzer, something awarded for current works.

Deschain:


I think you want the cultural center prize to mean something the designers of the game don't want it to mean. They want it to be like a Pulitzer, something awarded for current works.

No, I want the library weights to reflect what the libraries have achieved historically and what they are doing currently. I want this to be done in such a way that old works still have some value (especially old prestige works), and new works have a much greater value (to reflect that they are still achieving and making progress).

Why are you so hung up on Cultural Center? I've already stated, even in the opening post, that I don't care about that. Tweak the change so that Hallifax keeps Cultural Center, who cares? Just don't make old works worthless.

That also isn't the first time I've expressed that; it's like a few of you are so caught up on Cultural Center that you are rabidly against considering any change whatsoever and dig down into whatever counter example you can think of, even when it just makes no sense. For example, this whole discussion about Greece 'not mattering'.

Ignore Cultural Center. Adjust the change so that Cultural Center stays where it is.

Consider the suggestion on its own, regardless of Cultural Center playing a role. Should older works really not be counted at all as part of a Library's historical record and an organization's influence in the shaping of the world? A number of Hallifax's books have already gone into that void, and many more will as time goes on. Maybe you don't care, but I do.

A book shouldn't become worthless to a library just because it's over 50 years old.

If its a good book people will still keep reading it even after those 50 years. Just because it doesn't have points attached to it doesn't mean its pointless, it seems up to the players to keep those good books alive and read. I get where you're coming from, but just because it doesn't have points attached doesn't mean its suddenly meaningless. I would hope books have meaning because it sparks RP and influences the RP of people being recommended to read it, not because of its epoints.

Nearly two RL years is long enough to have very long-term mechanical benefits.

Turnus:

If its a good book people will still keep reading it even after those 50 years. Just because it doesn't have points attached to it doesn't mean its pointless, it seems up to the players to keep those good books alive and read. I get where you're coming from, but just because it doesn't have points attached doesn't mean its suddenly meaningless. I would hope books have meaning because it sparks RP and influences the RP of people being recommended to read it, not because of its epoints.

Nearly two RL years is long enough to have very long-term mechanical benefits.

As far as Lusternia and the library system's concerned, not having points does mean that it's meaningless. Lusternia's built around mechanics at its base level, and while you technically can roleplay things... well, Estarra herself has posted repeatedly that she's not going to implement something that is 'roleplay only' with no mechanical effect, which is to me a sound policy.

I've also been playing for far longer than two RL years; I've got books published that have just been rendered worthless, to the point where I might as well not even have bothered. I've got artifacts that have lasted for more than two years and have provided mechanical benefits that whole time. Glomdoring's trees (well, some of them at least) have lasted more than two RL years and provided mechanical benefits that whole time. Many other game things have lasted longer and still provide their full benefit now as they did then. 'Two years is a long time!' is not valid justification for making something worthless after that period, especially when more time was spent creating it than was spent on buying a few credits.

That's where I'm coming from, and I'm definitely frustrated by it.

Well, you're welcome to your opinion. I disagree and it strikes me as being a case of the loud minority based on the opinions in this thread so far.

I don't think artifacts and library books can be compared either.

Turnus:

Well, you're welcome to your opinion. I disagree and it strikes me as being a case of the loud minority based on the opinions in this thread so far.

I don't think artifacts and library books can be compared either.

Most of the responses I'm seeing against are more based on "PLEASE DON'T TAKE CULTURAL CENTER AWAY NOOO" than on the actual issue being presented, so I don't really take that as real opinions against the notion, just against implementing it in such a way that it takes away what they got when the change went in.

Aside from artifacts, I also have my master plate (not an artifact), and there's the orgbix (didn't pay a thing for that, just time; in fact, less time than I spent writing Tales of the Gloriana), the Night Altar on the Ravenwood-bubble, aetherships and manses bought and built with gold (accumulated in an IC manner; it'd be pretty silly if aetherships / manses blew up after two RL years too, wouldn't it?), and so on.

Being able to change hands makes sense, but as has been stated many times suddenly having no value does not make sense.

We do not need to baby new orgs. This change literally hardcoded a new leader and did it by LEAPS. Even if old stuff just had half weight that would make more sense.

You can piss and moan about how "it's a good change" but you are really saying half a sentence. It is a good change... for new orgs only. Most of the older orgs lost people to the new ones, so writers have fluxed a bit. I could fairly say celest and seren lost several writers to Hallifax. Should hallifax be pulling in the most writing category? Yes. Should their library be "the most prestigious"? No.

Prestige of a library should be a full scale account, older entries should be "classics" at LEAST if they won a scholarly or literally contest. This would also mean writing well and getting the scholarly/literary winners would hold more value in the long run.


Tweak a bit:
- Make the system ALWAYS credit winning literary/scholarly pieces as "classics", regardless of age
- Take into account recent publications (last 50 years works) at full credit
- Adjust the value of having the fastest growing library.
- Make "most scholarly/literary" be based on recent weight + classics.

tl;dr

System was borked, fix like this.
Total prestige = last 50 years entries + all winning scholarly/literary
Most scholarly = last 50 years scholarly + all winning scholarly
Most Literary = last 50 years literary + all winning literary
Fastest growing = fastest growing + X


P.S. Glomdoring was not always in the game, they were a new org and they still took the lead.

Turnus:

Well, you're welcome to your opinion. I disagree and it strikes me as being a case of the loud minority based on the opinions in this thread so far.

Also, I just went back and scanned the thread.

Currently we have:

Giving some value to old works, with more emphasis on newer works to make the system more dynamic
Xenthos, Alacardael, Malarious, Neos (based on his Liking of the main post).

Against giving value to old works, only books in the last 50 years add anything
Morbo, Turnus, Enyalida.

Arguing about Cultural Center and that it should be able to change hands, which nobody disagrees with
Iytha, Alban, and Kiradawea/Zyphora who liked Iytha's post.
Plus everyone else in the thread.

Offering alternative ideas without giving an opinion one way or the other
Ushaara.

Other
Eritheyl, for liking posts on both sides of the issue. Confusing!

So, the numbers don't really seem to be 'vocal minority' one way or the other. It'd be kind of nice if you didn't try to dismiss a valid suggestion / concern as "nobody else cares or wants it." Thank you.

Though I've only recently returned to the game, speaking as a former Librarian and as a former Culture Minister who worked closely with the Librarian later, I think this is a good change. I remember how ridiculously hard it was to move up a rank in the 'most literary' category.and then how hard it was to keep ahead enough to keep it. I couldn't imagine trying to do it with as big a handicap as Gaudiguch and Hallifax have compared to the rest.

Also, as a writer who has a few prestige winning books in libraries, I'm a bit saddened by the statement that the only reason the things I wrote might have value is if they still have points attached to them. I'd hope that someone might still enjoy actually reading them...

Both sides have raised very good points!

Xenthos:

Eritheyl, for liking posts on both sides of the issue. Confusing!

Both sides have raised very good points!

I'm not against making further tweaks to the Library system, however, this felt like a good first step to take in terms of dynamism and "fairness." That said, I did admit after loading the change that it looked like there were a few bugs, so some points in these posts are a little premature and others will be handled accordingly.

1) The Largest Library should be, and now is, taking into account all books published ever (by weight). This was a bug.
2) I will discuss with other Admin the prospect of having prestige winners always count towards Scholarly and Literary ratings. I agree that an old, prestigious book will never be worthless or unknown. However, that little ditty you wrote about your grandmother when you were sixteen years old that your Librarian sponsored you for as a gesture of good will, probably isn't doing anything for the Library in the grand scheme of things.

Having mentioned point 2, I'm not sure it necessarily needs doing as point 1 already prevents any publication from ever being worthless (and gives extra credit to prestige books).

And She's done it again.

:wub:

I'm concerned that completely dismissing old books, will create an incentive to create and hide "anthologies"

Honestly, the thing I'm most astonished about was that something that had this much of an effect was present only in a changelog. Whilst I appreciate changelogs for the little things, because it means we see them without the Announce boards getting wholly clogged up...this was not a little thing, and I really feel like it merited its own announce post - if nothing else because then the admin would have had an opportunity to explain the reasoning behind it, and perhaps that would've helped people understand the changes more.

I haven't even begun to process a reaction to the changes themselves yet, and I want to sit down with numbers and work out what 'tweaks' to it would make any difference before properly formulating an opinion (let alone unleashing it for public criticism).

Considering that a few people have now mentioned an announce post would be more appropriate, there now is one covering the changes. My apologies if you think I tried to brush over the change.