BC also doesn't have PinLeg, AmputateLeg/Arm, or general bleeding on every attack. :mellow:

Cavalier's Sunder attack cannot bashbrain because it avoids stancing and parrying in exchange for power. This is likewise true for the cutting specs and behead. Bonecrusher's equivalent attack, Crush, is a jab and therefore cannot bashbrain. Pulp can trigger bashbrain because it can be stanced/parried.

Essentially, you cannot get an instakill with a power move that avoids stancing/parrying/etc.

Yes, it's only been a couple of days since its release, and lots more sparring/testing needed, but am curious as to how others are finding the spec. My first impressions below.

Initial thinking on jab affs:
- Addition of rend or rend-like equivalent on Impale. Need to test if JaggedWound could be used effectively toward bleedspam (initial impression is not enough), but I think rend on Impale would be good help here.

- Case to be made for PierceArm/SeverNerve instead of SliceBicep, and PierceLeg to help with sticking the KnockDown swing. Would add these at light/medium arm/leg.

- Addition of critical jab on chest and/or gut, should be regen cure to help Skewer viability.

I think that would leave jabs pretty nicely.

Initial thinking on swing affs:
- FractureSkull to Medium like BC, help with low wound hindering/building.

- Would like to add CrushWindpipe at heavy for potential to greenlock, with Heft making up for the two poison requirement to secure it. Iosai indicated new strategies needed to be thought up for Cavalier though, so may be while yet before this would be considered.

- Both chest and gut need a lower wound level swing. SeverSpine and CrushChest both crit swing requirements for Skewer, but currently an all or nothing result. SeverSpine is also the spec's only regen cure prone which is usually route to building wounds. Tested a 20 str, max precision (excepting drawdown/nightkiss/racial precision buff), puissant hefted sunder vs 50 blunt robes (8p), result was massive wounding yes (~3200 wounds), but no affliction for all that wounding/power.

BashBrain/Skewer viability:
- BashBrain seems fine.

- Skewer I think needs one of CrushChest/SeverSpine lowered to heavy. SeverSpine would be preferable obviously, but CrushChest more likely, since it's already at heavy for BC as is. Regen salve stack for Disembowel works for PB as it has lots of regen cures at heavy wounding, with amputates forcing double regens. Would say Tahtetso insta also has easier time of landing regen affs. Keeping three bodyparts at crit long enough to keep a regen salve stack going I think makes Skewer unlikely, especially with CrushChest and SeverSpine allheale'able and no way for a Cavalier to lock up curing. Adding regen cure crit jab on chest/gut and another heavy regen swing could help.

The good to too good?:
- Joust. It's just fun!

- Guard. Chance for passive hit always nice, even if small.

- Heft. Strike+ and chance to hit two bodyparts on swing also nice. Swings are top heavy aff-wise so not seeing that many extra affs, but the potential of building on two bodyparts at once is very helpful.

- Obstruct. May need a small power cost to justify.effectiveness. Can see it being great in groups and for certain tertiaries.

The bad?:
- BreakArm/Leg, rawr! My least favourite warrior affs, though at least they're at light wounds.

- No means to lock/hinder curing.

- No tendonspam, sob sob. :(

- No 'Jab or Swing' affs which is kinda weird.


Extra Wishlist:
- CrushLeg to sprawl on hit.

- DislocateArm/Leg instead of BreakArm/Leg <- personally, would take this for no CrushWindpipe!

Big rave to admin for the spec though! Have wanted a polearm spec since forever! :)

Some nice skills for group combat, guard's defensive usefulness mainly depends on whether it can deliver poisons, haven't heard a definite statement in that regard, yet.

1v1 it must be the spec that kills most slowly right now, since you have to rely on either a 2h bashbrain, which will naturally take longer to get than a 1h one, or getting two crit level afflictions with one (hefted) swing AND the target not powercuring/allhealing them before you can skewer. Lack of a lock doesn't help there.

However, it has some nice potential burst wounding and also overall wounding/time output, considering tae'dae with their high strength, racial bonus, cavalier bonus for being mounted and the possible double hit on power attacks plus guard as a passive wound builder.

Tweaking the aff list some is okay, a few things have already been mentioned in the thread.
CrushLeg is a mangle, that's it, if you want them prone, you'll need another affliction for it. That said, I believe it is a weak affliction for 2h critical level wounds. If it works like bc CrushLeg, though, trying to get in double swings via heft with calcise could do the trick to achieve it at much lower wounds (and, provided you can hit both legs at once like that, even give you the prone state you want via a knockdown on the other leg - with some luck).

Question: Can the second hit from a hefted swing be parrried/stanced?

I agree with the majority of Ushaara's post. Nice utility with Guard, Obstruct, PinCharge, good wounding rate with heft, but a wound list that kind of meh, and an instakill that is near impossible to achieve (and by the time you did you would have gotten a bashbrain much earlier).

Hefted swings are really good for building wounds, but then most of the swing affs are at critical, you end up just giving wounds and no affs. And heft again is vulnerable to RNG.

The second swing is exactly like a normal swing, it can miss and get parried/stanced.

Windpipe lock at heavy head swing would open that slitlock up, though of course it'll be less reliable than BC again (heft has to fire in addition to smite down hitting head and both poisons being delivered and not shrugged).

Having one nice crit strike aff or even a heavy swing tendon (!) would be good. Seems to be at higher wounds the only point of striking in 1v1 is for a 'lol I impale you so you have to writhe from it though I didn't achieve anything from the impale'. Especially given how weak JaggedWound is.

And I think bal-less vault / SteedWhistle / power option to heal beast in stables that is recovering from a mortal wound would be coooool additions too.

Quite sure you can't heft to both legs.

Seems to be at higher wounds the only point of striking in 1v1 is for a 'lol I impale you so you have to writhe from it though I didn't achieve anything from the impale'.

Hindering isn't nothing!

You wildly jab a wickedly barbed trident at a rat. You jab him, driving your
trident deep.
The point of the blade thrusts through a rat's body and emerges from his back,
jolting him upright as an expression of horror crosses his face. He finally
slides off the blade, dropping to the ground with a thud.
You have slain a rat.


That looks familiar!

If you give a spec better affs then something will get changed, you cannot add 4 affs (windpipe/slit, mangles, etc) while keeping double hits and free hits and not expect something to change. While you may feel cavaliers are weak now, the ability to get multiple affs at once can be huge.

Not saying anything for or against, just a warning to note.

I like the idea of a warrior sped without cure locks, but that also has some concerns in groups for possibly building wayyy too fast.

I've not toyed with Cavaliers but Ushaara's analysis seems pretty sound. Crushedwindpipe seems fairly appropriate for the class, and it won't even be too easy to get that lock.

I was thinking about the beast stuff and wondering why there isn't some sort of 10p (or however much) skill that instantly resummons your beast if it dies.

I think if we do decide they need a greenlock and decide to go for giving them crushedwindpipe, we should consider making poison one of the granted inherents.

Crushleg sprawling sounds reasonable to me too.

Also, you should never have impale without rend.

Personally, I think we should try to come up with something a little more creative than rend for cavaliers. What that should be I don't know, but I'm sure some creative people out there could come up with some suggestions.

Turnus:

Personally, I think we should try to come up with something a little more creative than rend for cavaliers. What that should be I don't know, but I'm sure some creative people out there could come up with some suggestions.

I've been thinking of a rend+, since it won't be possible to do a pair of them at once (ala Blademaster); it's gut only meaning you can only aim for one body part instead of three, so it'd be nice if it actually did 2x the bleed and possibly an aff such as open gut when you tear it out. In fact, if could even be called "tear" or something like that instead of "rend". It's a great big bladed staff stuck through your gut, pulling it out should sting!

They should use the impaled polearm in your gut to perform a pole vault. Okay, not serious but that would be pretty amusing.

Turnus:

They should use the impaled polearm in your gut to perform a pole vault. Okay, not serious but that would be pretty amusing.

Flying beast-pets!

Rivius:

I've not toyed with Cavaliers but Ushaara's analysis seems pretty sound. Crushedwindpipe seems fairly appropriate for the class, and it won't even be too easy to get that lock.

I was thinking about the beast stuff and wondering why there isn't some sort of 10p (or however much) skill that instantly resummons your beast if it dies.

I think if we do decide they need a greenlock and decide to go for giving them crushedwindpipe, we should consider making poison one of the granted inherents.

Crushleg sprawling sounds reasonable to me too.

Also, you should never have impale without rend.

The point of the skillset (and requiring a quest) is that they're intended to be done in conjunction with a well-trained beast, as is the skillset. Giving everyone any inherent they might need sort of reduces that point. If they feel they need poison spit, they can train their beast in it.

After bit more playing with them I'd say my priorities report wise would be to cover the gap in mid-range chest & gut swings, move FractureSkull to Medium head, see addition of Rend-like equivalent, and push for a hefted smash to have chance to hit both legs before reviewing the Windpipe/Skewer suggestions (would still maintain something needed there though).

For chest swing: OpenChest to jab or swing action makes sense to me. If there's restriction on keeping jabs and swings distinct then something like BreakChest/SnapRib could be a goer.

For gut swing: I'm seeing Wind at Light/Medium here. Non-impacting cure wise while providing at least some hinder/return to the Cavalier for all the swings at gut/chest area they'll be doing. If other ideas going, sure sure.

FractureSkull to Medium: Making landing this a bit more reliable would help make up a bit for the lack of ability to lock curing.

Rend: Don't have numbers on bleed from rends, initial idea for me was JaggedWound on withdraw but that's probably not all that great. If going for something different, a passive accelerated wound build on gut for duration of impale could maybe work. I'm seeing it as Cavalier jiggling the handle around while person is impaled.

Hefted Smash chance to hit both legs: I'd push for this if CrushLeg sprawling is off the table. Current implementation means you're either standing with mangle, or sprawled with no mangle, neither of which are states a Cavalier can really capitalise on since stand can go through before balance returns for Cavalier, as well as KnockDown being swing only.

These suggestions would make it one new aff, added feature on impale and hidden backroom changes and I would see as all pretty reasonable.

Steed Changes: Faster whistling of steed and powered re-summon on steed death are both things that are needed I think. Please don't make more the spec more expensive and make Beastmaster's Whistle/Spurs/beastpet with phoenix requirements too! :(

I have the following observations so far.

1. Recovery could have been a really neat skill. But for myself, I find it not practical. Firstly, it only recovers jabs, and cavaliers don't have any "must land" jab afflictions. Which means the skill is mostly good for killing mobiles. This would be great, but the recovery period doesn't really last long enough for the long balance cost activating the skill has. I would recommend turning it into a defense which can be turned on and off, and every time you benefit from recovery, it costs you 1 power. Currently for myself, the ability only lasts for 2 jabs anyways, and I may not even miss.

2. I think Cavalier steeds need a faster balance time. If we are meant to take advantage of skills like hypnotic gaze, or trample, or spit poisons and the like, it needs to be reliable. If we can only use the abilities once every 2 attacks, and we have to deal with all sorts of random numbers on top of that, it makes it very hard to use the beast abilities reliably in anything other than group combat... and in those situations, you don't even need it. Trample for example can be fully healed before we gain recovery from it. An extra poison is nice, but won't help us if it's only once every 10 seconds. If balance was closer to 7 seconds, then we could combine it with the extra second it takes to use Heft , and be slow but strong warriors.

3. The charging abilities are a bit weird the way they are currently set up. PinCharge is nice, except for the fact that impaling someone, seems to hurt me more than it hurts them. Since there isn't much I can do from that position other than take up balance to withdraw or wait for them to writhe. Perhaps if we could do some wounds to multiple body parts when the pole arm is withdrawn it would be better. (or major bleeding, or some other affliction) The normal steed charge is handy, but requiring that I know which exit to take two rooms away, is a bit annoying, and it can't be done from a dead end, which is normally where charging out would be most beneficial. Also the fact that the balance time increases with the stun length increasing, makes me wonder why have the variable stun and balance time.

4. I find Skewer too hard to land when I look at the math. If I only needed critical wounds on the chest and gut, or one affliction and critical on the other, I can see it sticking, but since I need them to have uncured afflictions, it's a bit tough. Added to that is that we will likely be needing to use 4-5 (8 or 10 for both) power to make sure the affliction hits in the first place, and then another 4 power available to do the final attack, we need a VERY lucky window of circumstances to Skewer.

I'm only writing the negative parts so people can discuss them. As a support class on the battle field with others, Cavaliers do very well , with farguard, and heft, and cleave, and easy impales. And I'd hate to be on the receiving end of a group of Cavaliers charging in together... But that's true of every class.

As an aside, it's really annoying that Maschosim doesn't give accurate wounding levels when testing on yourself :)

Just going to comment on 2, to say that I don't think it's a good idea.

I disagree that cavaliers deserve anything more as far as beast balance / beast summon / spurs / phoenix goes. You can purchase those if you want the benefit.

It's already hard enough to kill the beast and there is already an ability that makes it very difficult to knock the rider off the mount.

Enyalida:

Just going to comment on 2, to say that I don't think it's a good idea.

Some explanation would be nice. Eventru just said that steeds and supposed to be a part of our strategies, and right now, they can play only a minor second fiddle, and any warrior with a steed gets the same benefit of an extra poison every 10 seconds. I don't remember the exact point values, but for my own steed, the inborn abilities gave me an extra 60 trains to use. But charge costs 75, so I couldn't even add that on.

Sojiro:

I disagree that cavaliers deserve anything more as far as beast balance / beast summon / spurs / phoenix goes. You can purchase those if you want the benefit.

It's already hard enough to kill the beast and there is already an ability that makes it very difficult to kill the rider.

Who needs to kill the beast? Just shove them into another room, and they lose half their combat effectiveness.
But could you imagine asking Druids to spend 1,000+ credits just so that they could remeld within 10 minutes of having it unmelded?