Veyrzhul:

Please name but a few. And please no 'Kill the pooka.'

An easy one would have been to be in your demesne.

Zarquan:

Not to distract from the thrilling discussion, but Inquisition taking 15 seconds from start to finish is a good argument for changing it. Honestly, I think it just needs to throw the caster off equilibrium for a second when the target isn't ready instead of allowing you to spam it at no cost. Your timing is irrelevant when you can just spam it.

Infidel and inquisition each cost 350 mana per try even if unsuccessful. Spamming it can't be done without cost. I still struggle to understand what bearing this has on wicca sleeplock though. If you want to change inquisition, create a topic/report about it.

Rivius:

Those ents, that by the way, are one-shottable unlike yours. ;)

OPEN CHANNELS exists, was recently halved in power cost and completely negates tactics based on attacking ents.

An easy one would have been to be in your demesne.

And that would have helped... how?

Placeus:

OPEN CHANNELS exists, was recently halved in power cost and completely negates tactics based on attacking ents.

? how?

The "bearing" is that this is a non-issue and there are other things that have existed long enough in an imbalanced state to warrant more attention than this. I'm sure any report in Inquisition, Trueheal, or anything similar would be met with much anger and skepticism, and thus no one wants to touch them. :P

Oh, and this sleeplock can be slowed/stopped by shielding/running! Just had to say it.

This is really getting ridiculous. So now you're saying killing the ent is not a valid strategy? This is how guardians and wiccans work. They have a burst offense and it's your job to survive them. Once you do, they're open to you until they're ready to try for it again. Luckily, this sleeplock relies on multiple things with precise timing, so interrupting any of it screws them over.

Rivius:

Those ents, that by the way, are one-shottable unlike yours. ;)

'Those ents' being ents that aren't even needed for this tactic, except for pooka?

I have zero qualms belittling a tactic that consists of "try, if it fails run away to recover, try again, run away to recover" over and over until it sticks (and a 1p cost to resummon pooka when you've run is pretty much non-existant, since you're not using it in combat). It's effective, but that doesn't make it either balanced or right.

Rivius:

This is really getting ridiculous. So now you're saying killing the ent is not a valid strategy? This is how guardians and wiccans work. They have a burst offense and it's your job to survive them. Once you do, they're open to you until they're ready to try for it again. Luckily, this sleeplock relies on multiple things with precise timing, so interrupting any of it screws them over.

The problem is that it's very, very quick for the Wiccan to recover from this since it does not even use all that much power for one attempt. A doublewhammy, and maaaaaaaybe 1p to resummon the pooka.

It doesn't really rely on multiple things, all it relies on is pookaing metawake off, beast sleepcloud, and double whammy. If that sticks for 18+ seconds you can do whatever you want. What kind of precise timing is that?

PS: That's a whole heck of a lot more time than Inquisition lasts, and with less actual setup involved too!

The sleeplock as above relies on the pooka. That's it. It's nice that he prepared aeon and all, but it was completely unnecessary since I never got to wake up at all. Ridiculous are the ones defending this.

How IS killing the pooka a valid strategy? It means I have to interrupt my offense for AT LEAST one staff attack, possibly more, when he can just call back the ent for 1 power at no eq cost at all. That's as good hindering as ectoplasm, but for no eq cost for him. NICE! And then he just waits a bit again and I... need to kill it again? Where do I get to do my offense in this again?

Veyrzhul:

How IS killing the pooka a valid strategy? It means I have to interrupt my offense for AT LEAST one staff attack, possibly more, when he can just call back the ent for 1 power at no eq cost at all. That's as good hindering as ectoplasm, but for no eq cost for him. NICE! And then he just waits a bit again and I... need to kill it again? Where do I get to do my offense in this again?

its a four second equi loss.. what are you all talking about

Open Channels lets you summon ents without an eq cost. That's what it's for.

Step 1: Summon ents.

Step 2: OPEN CHANNELS

Step 3: Order ents to attack you, take note of the time at which they hit.

Step 4: Subtract the time you want them to hit after being ordered to attack from 10. Lets call this 'x'

Step 5: Passify the ent at x seconds after it hits you.

Step : Leave the ent somewhere safe (moonhart mother) or even dismiss it. Ent timings last through ents being killed/dismissed/logging out/changing class.

Step 6: In the same macro as ordering the ent to attack, summon it. It will appear and immediately start counting down its attack timer. The pooka can have a very low timer and attack almost immediately. The pixie can have a timer chosen to tick just before someone typically wakes from their first sleep attempt. As they are asleep for this period, they are not able to kill the pixie.

To update my macro from before:

{order target metawake off;enemy target;beast order breathe sleepcloud;faecall;order pixie kill target;doublewhammy target with sleep sleep}

edit: The log from Sondayga's PoV shows that you don't need to go to these lengths and simple timing of the fae gives you a good chance for success. OPEN CHANNELS is there to help wiccans/guardians deal with people who attack ents - if they elect to use it then killing ents is not an option.

Veyrzhul:

Open Channels lets you summon ents without an eq cost. That's what it's for.

Um if thats happening on the celestian front can I have. Open channels lets you call your ents that ARE ALREADY SUMMONED back to you for no eq cost, summoning a new one still takes eq

Placeus:

Step 1: Summon ents.

Step 2: OPEN CHANNELS

Step 3: Order ents to attack you, take note of the time at which they hit.

Step 4: Subtract the time you want them to hit after being ordered to attack from 10. Lets call this 'x'

Step 5: Passify the ent at x seconds after it hits you.

Step : Leave the ent somewhere safe (moonhart mother) or even dismiss it. Ent timings last through ents being killed/dismissed/logging out/changing class.

Step 6: In the same macro as ordering the ent to attack, summon it. It will appear and immediately start counting down its attack timer. The pooka can have a very low timer and attack almost immediately. The pixie can have a timer chosen to tick just before someone typically wakes from their first sleep attempt. As they are asleep for this period, they are not able to kill the pixie.

To update my macro from before:

{order target metawake off;enemy target;beast order breathe sleepcloud;faecall;order pixie kill target;doublewhammy target with sleep sleep}

pooka is on a random timer unlike the other fae, and fae timings do not last through killed/dismissed/logging out/changing class because you are getting an entirely new fae each time you summon one after its been killed/you leave the realms/dismiss it etc.

Well, first of all, you ignored Shamarah's one solution, which is definitely an effective option! But then you also could kill the pooka and use METAWAKE, force lust to avoid the sleepcloud, make him waste power and beast mana, move, idk hinder him???, separate him from his beast/ents....list goes on.

PS: That's a whole heck of a lot more time than Inquisition lasts, and with less actual setup involved too!

While it's true that inquisition costs power and mana, it takes no setup at all. You just spam each stage until the person has it. Even easier now that it has no cure and takes no equilibrium when the person isn't ready for the next stage.

That's how it works for Celestines, for new angels and existing ones. If it doesn't for wicca, then that's different here (not sure if intended, though). Question is, then, do wiccan ents always die in one hit?

Question is then, do you always fall asleep for 18 seconds?

sondayga:

pooka is on a random timer unlike the other fae, and fae timings do not last through killed/dismissed/logging out/changing class because you are getting an entirely new fae each time you summon one after its been killed/you leave the realms/dismiss it etc.

Alrighty, I'll concede that you have to keep the pooka with you. The others can be left wherever is convenient though. You would have to wait for the pooka to tick before applying the sleeplock and resummon it for 1p if the target chooses to stop their offence for long enough to kill it.

Well, first of all, you ignored Shamarah's one solution, which is definitely an effective option! But then you also could kill the pooka and use METAWAKE, force lust to avoid the sleepcloud, make him waste power and beast mana, move, idk hinder him???, separate him from his beast/ents....list goes on.

I didn't ignore Shamarah's comment, in fact I replied on it. Ablaze can be cleansed right after putting the person to sleep, so it is a gamble whether it even ticks before it gets removed. It could buy you time, though, that is true. However, I personally hold that (ab)using afflictions to help you in combat is a workaround at best (hi paranoia).

As for killing pooka, read above. That also voids the metawake comment.
Force lust? How do I do that again? Lovepotion? Okay, so he does his macro after rejecting me. That solves nothing.
How does hindering help me with this unless I completely lock him down and make him unable to attack at all?
Separating from the beast can theoretically help with normal beasts, but with pets, not at all since they can be moved and made to follow without use of eq/bal. Separating from the ents does nothing at all.

Please tell me what else is on your list. I'm not impressed, so far.

Question is then, do you always fall asleep for 18 seconds?

No, but what does it matter if all he needs to do between his attempts is hinder and run, and they hardly cost him anything?

To try and get past the discussion on ent mechanics... hexen wicca were originally designed to be very good at applying a burst of sleep attacks. They requied some prior setup with anorexia/aeon, jinx or blackout to get 1 of the requried 3 sleeps before the pooka/doublewhammy.

This changed when a balanceless beastmastery sleepcloud was introduced. A class with mechanics based around hiding/hindering the curing of one sleep attack before following up with a double became able to deal all 3 at once. Therein lies the problem