Binjo:



@Sidd: Most types of combat in this game are boring when broken down sufficiently. For example when you and Talan arti'd up as bards back when it was possible to make yourselves unmovable, was that super exciting use of game mechanics? Or were you going for the most efficient synergy with your archetype? People use what works, I've tried to make the game better by toning some of these things down (like the Shofangi green lock) but I'm doubting that TK will ever work in a significantly different manner than it does now and that's about as boring as it gets (when used in standard ways).

It takes work to stack aurics, especially when you throw in allheale/passive curing. It doesn't even matter if you can be moved or not. Plenty of people think it's impossible against anyone with passive curing and I plain disagree. I go for dchord because it is the toughest thing to pull off. One time, some researcher I was trying to dchord wrote in a chromapen that it was impossible to kill them with dchord, then I turned around and did it. Bards are way easier than warrior, but they are not walk in the park. Then you take into account the fact that bards are quite probably the squishiest class to play and your offense requires you to A) not move from the room you are in and B) none of your aurics do -any- hindering, and C) The power usage is outrageous (I've never played wiccan, which I expect is similar). You really think bards are a walk in the park? So yeah, even when I was immovable, it was exciting. I could just play the lame crowcaw spam move on little people, but that's not fun.

This isn't to say I haven't done any of this stuff before, but I mostly go for aurics and octaves even in groups.

That being said, you missed the point of my post, which was that Sondayga admitted to me it was easy to pull off and is now arguing that it is not.

Where was all this anti-sleeplocks when Shadowdancers were trying to get 0 power infinite doublesleeps?

I'd consider all of your arguments invalid because you were all arguing for Shadowdancers to have the ability to get this.

But for Moondancers to be able to do sleeplocks that require power, and isn't infinite, is not ok.

Silvanus:

Where was all this anti-sleeplocks when Shadowdancers were trying to get 0 power infinite doublesleeps?

I'd consider all of your arguments invalid because you were all arguing for Shadowdancers to have the ability to get this.

But for Moondancers to be able to do sleeplocks that require power, and isn't infinite, is not ok.

lol, There was never an option for a 0p infinite doublesleep solution. I consider anything you say invalid because you can't read.


Solution #1: Have shadows that have been stolen not drop or decay upon death of the person who has
stolen them, but make the shadow dissolve upon the stealer's departure from the realms.
Solution #2: Along with solution 1, add a parameter called Squeeze (SHADOWDANCE TWIST (target)
SQUEEZE) to the skill that recurs the current twist affliction for 1p, along with the standard mana
drain + quicksilver strip. This move will NOT increment the shadow's twist level.
Solution #3: "Along with Solution 1, add a parameter called Squeeze (SHADOWDANCE TWIST (target)
SQUEEZE) to the skill that reafflicts with the current twist affliction for 0p, and nothing else (no
mana drain or quicksilver strip). This move will NOT increment the shadow's twist level. On the
fourth squeeze, the shadow will explode (causing the affliction and no further damage, but
destroying the shadow)

Sidd:


lol, There was never an option for a 0p infinite doublesleep solution. I consider anything you say invalid because you can't read.

Oh well, 1power doublesleeps or limited doublesleeps, a big difference.

There was no argument against that.



Furies' Decision:
Merger of solutions 2+3. It will cost 1p, do aff + quicksilver strip + mana drain with a 4 use limit. We didn't like the idea of "infinite" 1p doublesleep or limited 0p doublesleep. This is our compromise.

Again, big difference, my bad for a slip of the tongue. You can crucify me now, its alright,

1 power infinite double sleeps > anything that Moondancers can do.

Silvanus:

Oh well, 1power doublesleeps or limited doublesleeps, a big difference.

There was no argument against that.

Here's the difference, ready for it? The second a SD aeons, no more double sleep until they run through the entire cycle. MD's don't have that same issue. Now if a SD hexen wants to do it, well then then it really falls into the same category now does it. it's all about the availibility of aeon, if it wasn't for aeon, sleeplocks wouldn't be an issue.


Do me a favor and tell me what part of 4 time limit means 1p infinite double sleeps?

Sidd:


Here's the difference, ready for it? The second a SD aeons, no more double sleep until they run through the entire cycle. MD's don't have that same issue. Now if a SD hexen wants to do it, well then then it really falls into the same category now does it. it's all about the availibility of aeon, if it wasn't for aeon, sleeplocks wouldn't be an issue.

Also, once again, you ready for this?

If a Moondancer fails to sleeplock in 3 times, they have to redraw 6 hexes, and wait 60 seconds to regain the power. Thats what happened before this log.

Second, the Shadowdancer can be a Hexen, can draw 6 sleeplocks, do the tighten until they get it right then aeon, then go to doublewhammy sleeping with being able to twist the Aeon. Just because they all went Healer and didn't take the ridiculous skillset of Hexes, is not a Moondancers fault. A Moondancer has to be a Hexen to sleeplock someone, definite not true for SDs (though its much easier).

I personally have thought beast poison spit/sleepcloud/most of beastmastery is silly, but I've played IRE games for the better part of a decade and think lots of things have been silly.

Right, so the Hexan shadowdancer falls into the same category as hexen MD, except for the aeon aspect, which I said in my previous post didn't I?

Here is where you are wrong. They have 4 tightens TOTAL. if they don't get it right, they have to use another tighten. It's not 4 on double sleep, then 4 on aeon, then 4 on stupidty. It's 4 total. If you blow that trying to double sleep, it's blown. No part of this is infinite. Just because you keep saying it, doesn't make it true.

Another big factor to consider is the 1p aeon vs the 0p aeon attack MD's have. You aren't really considering these skillsets as a whole. You are focusing on one aspect of the skillset (wrongly, I might add), and making false assertions.

Right, and here's where you got it wrong from someone who does sleeplock. People wake up in the first 3 seconds, more often then not, if they don't wake up when you recover eq from putting them to sleep and you get your aeon off, more often then not, that person is dead. If Veyrzhul shows the log before this, he was probably never asleep + aeon at any point until this log section. Now, where am I getting at?

All you need is one aeon. The only part thats important is the putting to sleep and for them to be asleep long enough to get the aeon off. As a Shadowdancer, you have 4 tries to work the doublesleep right. Without using Hexes. If you get them asleep with aeon, in most cases, you have succeeded in your kill situation. If you fail with those 4 doublesleeps? (One twist, three tightens) Then you move to doublewhammy sleep, and hope you get it right so you can twist to aeon.

So yes, Moondancers have an easier time Aeoning, but Shadowdancers have a much easier time actually putting to sleep. And when all else fails but the opponent has metawake off?

Beast sleepcloud/order @person sleep/sleep enchantment. Triple, 0 power sleep on a 10 second timer (are fae 12? Then its 12).

Nothing I've said about it being infinite except for the first post where I admitted I was wrong, its just SDs have more chances to sleeplock then a Moondancer, and there was nothing wrong with that.

Note: I'm not arguing that SDs are overpowered or that this skill is overpowered. I'm pointing out that no one had a problem with SDs doing it, and it was actually envoyed for them to have an easier time to Sleeplock, and no one argued against it. I found that ironic, and thought I would like to point it out.

I forgot how much I actually enjoyed reading some of the back and forth arguments that have wandered so far off the point it's ridiculous.

Actually on topic: The only real issue that I personally saw with that log was that +18 second wake up time. I don't think I've ever seen it last that long before. Putting some cap on that wouldn't be unreasonable.

Silvanus:

Right, and here's where you got it wrong from someone who does sleeplock. People wake up in the first 3 seconds, more often then not, if they don't wake up when you recover eq from putting them to sleep and you get your aeon off, more often then not, that person is dead. If Veyrzhul shows the log before this, he was probably never asleep + aeon at any point until this log section. Now, where am I getting at?

I definitely disagree actually. I cured out of Sondayga's sleeplocks while being aeoned several times earlier today, and that was against 2 people! So no, just landing aeon doesn't mean you are dead, and I guarantee I didn't once wake up within 3 seconds after sleeplock attempts.

I don't think SD's are going to have an easier time sleeplocking than an MD. This is about sleeplocks, not just doublesleeps. No one cares if you just double sleep, it's all about the locking. You are making silly assumptions here that are just not true. You also just said in the previous post that an SD could doublewhammy sleep with twisting the aeon, so what is it? Just 1 aeon or do you need more?

You are continually backtracking comments here. You say one thing, then say something else. You did say it was infinite after your first post (1p infinite double sleeps > anything a moondancer can do), then you say you didn't say that? You need some continuity in your comments if you want to be taken seriously.

Really when it boils down to it. We are agreeing that sleeplocks are too easy, and the biggest issue with that is actually beast sleepcloud/spit morphite (less of an issue with resistance). So Shuyin's or Xenthos idea's for that, is pretty reasonable. It will make it require more work but won't cause too much trouble.

Yep.

If you change sleepcloud and spit morphite to something less burst offense-y, yet still retain its current functionality, you make sleeplocks require a bit more work (once more) to get done.

Whether that's a good or bad thing is completely up to the individual, though.

Another solution btw is to make sleepcloud be more like trample: have it take and consume regular balance as well.

Sidd:


You are continually backtracking comments here. You say one thing, then say something else. You did say it was infinite after your first post (1p infinite double sleeps > anything a moondancer can do), then you say you didn't say that? You need some continuity in your comments if you want to be taken seriously.

Hey I am going to ignore entire posts like you! Since clarification is needed:

Solution #2: Along with solution 1, add a parameter called Squeeze (SHADOWDANCE TWIST (target) SQUEEZE) to the skill that recurs the current twist affliction for 1p, along with the standard mana drain + quicksilver strip. This move will NOT increment the shadow's twist level.

1 power infinite doublesleeps is exactly what was asked for.

Your entire argument needs some continuity, you asked for just this last month!

So once again, 1 power infinite doublesleeps > Anything a Moondancer can do. And thats exactly what was asked for.

And I completely agree with you, Beast poison spit/sleepcloud probably shouldn't be available to most classes. I just thought it was funny that this is coming now, even though you asked for an easier time (not you specifically, your alliance) just last month for Shadowdancers.


Editted: How about requiring Mounted for more of these beastmastery skills? And give Warriors an easier time in vaulting up onto their beast.

Really, this has nothing to do with the subject anymore, heh.

Plus, it really isn't infinite considering that any power cost will eventually run you out of power. Even if you can "infinitely" spam double sleeps, you pretty much can't do anything else after that.

You can't tighten the shadow to progress your twist, you can't use any doublewhammies, and you definitely can't toad.

Sojiro:

Really, this has nothing to do with the subject anymore, heh.

Plus, it really isn't infinite considering that any power cost will eventually run you out of power. Even if you can "infinitely" spam double sleeps, you pretty much can't do anything else after that.

You can't tighten the shadow to progress your twist, you can't use any doublewhammies, and you definitely can't toad.

Unfortunately Refresh exists.

So does Avatar Refresh.x2

...But we're talking about a hypothetical situation where the admin actually implemented solution 2.

But they didn't.

So what does stating that refresh exists actually do?

I mean, if we're going that route, I can just counter back with "Report 903".

Really, back and forth discussions about hypothetical roads not taken are fun, but they really do go nowhere.

I'm curious what post I ignored in it's entirety. I guess because I don't like spamming pages with massive quotes when I'm really only focusing on a small portion of them, I must be ignoring them.

Silvanus:

Solution #2: Along with solution 1, add a parameter called Squeeze (SHADOWDANCE TWIST (target) SQUEEZE) to the skill that recurs the current twist affliction for 1p, along with the standard mana drain + quicksilver strip. This move will NOT increment the shadow's twist level.

1 power infinite doublesleeps is exactly what was asked for.

Your entire argument needs some continuity, you asked for just this last month!

So once again, 1 power infinite doublesleeps > Anything a Moondancer can do. And thats exactly what was asked for.

Here's the post you originally posted

Silvanus:


Oh well, 1power doublesleeps or limited doublesleeps, a big difference.

There was no argument against that.

Furies' Decision:
Merger of solutions 2+3. It will cost 1p, do aff + quicksilver strip + mana drain with a 4 use limit. We didn't like the idea of "infinite" 1p doublesleep or limited 0p doublesleep. This is our compromise.

Again, big difference, my bad for a slip of the tongue. You can crucify me now, its alright,

1 power infinite double sleeps > anything that Moondancers can do.

Here is where you said it was infinite again. Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying, but with this quote here. It looks like you are saying that they can do 1p infinite double sleeps, despite quoting a solution that says the opposite. If I misunderstood your intention, then my bad, but the second time you posted this is quite different from the first time.

I'll come right out and say I didn't ask for it at all actually. I remained unconvinced that twist is as bad as Celina makes it out to be (she's the only one I hear complain about it). I just think you are looking at two different concepts and trying to compare them in ineffectual and inaccurate ways. I don't think SD's have an easier time sleeplocking than MD's do. I can see it at a min costing 3p and much more time than an MD's 2p. It's definitely not as easy to repeat time and time again like MD's.

So the solutions that had at least a few supporters each and no opposition (I think) were

1.) changing the beast skills
2.) putting a cap on waking time

Putting a balance cost on the beast skills makes them pretty useless in their current incarnation. Perhaps replacing sleepcloud (and while we're at it the rather not so useful amnesiacloud) with other room afflictions would work? Or pick up the idea someone had before and make sleepcloud delayed, possibly with a message for when it is initiated. Not sure what to do about beast spit morphite other than prohibit that particular poison for beast usage.

As for waking time, Solanis mentioned 10 seconds as a possible cap. Sounds okay to me.

Honestly, you can also just move spit to a delayed reaction too. If you want to buff it up somehow, you can simply increase the number of shots from 10 to 20.

That's the simplest way of going about it since upon further thought, I'm not sure the admin would want to ban specific poisons.

Sojiro:

...But we're talking about a hypothetical situation where the admin actually implemented solution 2.

But they didn't.

So what does stating that refresh exists actually do?

I mean, if we're going that route, I can just counter back with "Report 903".

Really, back and forth discussions about hypothetical roads not taken are fun, but they really do go nowhere.

Er... huge difference... That report was actually submitted, and agreed upon, by multiple envoys, as being a good idea, and a tactic that is viable and should be made easier. Just pointing out that its sort of laughable that one month later, its a big deal, like something has changed to this tactic.

Sidd:

I'll come right out and say I didn't ask for it at all actually. I remained unconvinced that twist is as bad as Celina makes it out to be (she's the only one I hear complain about it). I just think you are looking at two different concepts and trying to compare them in ineffectual and inaccurate ways.

I'm not singling you out Sidd (even though I am responding to you) but there has been a lot of hypocrisy in this thread. If sleeplocks were a big deal, then envoys shouldn't have agreed to make them easier, or attempted to make it easier for their class, while crying nerf for another.




Nerf Beastmastery.

This thread has pretty much deteriorated into ad hominem attacks and pointless tangents, but I feel this one thing really needs to be said.

If you see a problem with the way wiccans use sleeplocks, you need to fix it by looking at what wiccans, and only wiccans, can do. Leave sleepcloud and dominate mechanics alone, or I will kill you in your sleep. Oh wait, I can't, because even though I'm a dreamweaver, I can't sleeplock anyone, despite it being the only way I can see ever reaching my kill condition.