AquaNeos:

All illusions can easily be dealt with in any well scripted system. 90% of all illusions will only work on me once unless I am lazy and forget to accoutn for them.

I guarantee you've not seen many good illusions then.

Rivius:

I guarantee you've not seen many good illusions then.

Writhe illusions? Easily accounted for sans groups, which require slightly more coding.
Most basic illusions aren't that good imo, programmed ones can be useful, but again, easily accounted for imo.

I'm sure there are plenty of illusions that will trip just about anyone up for a bit. Be more creative!

And, I'm certainly not against AutoAid being useful for people wanting to learn combat or get involved at the entry level, but I don't ever want to see it reach levels of reliability that match or rival the client-side. It's already been said that this is the goal, so it's pretty much a moot point already.

Zarquan:

I'm sure there are plenty of illusions that will trip just about anyone up for a bit. Be more creative!

And, I'm certainly not against AutoAid being useful for people wanting to learn combat or get involved at the entry level, but I don't ever want to see it reach levels of reliability that match or rival the client-side. It's already been said that this is the goal, so it's pretty much a moot point already.

Why?

I'm rather suspicious of this whole project. In my opinion, this should stop at what firstaid does and go no further.

If someone cannot dive into the short nexus manual (at least it used to be rather concise when I was using it now and then) to create some basic aliases and triggers for sipping and other things, they will not muster the energy to get anywhere in combat, anyway.

I just have this fear that once this curing system is finished, the next step could easily be to say 'Oh man, our skills are way too complicated and people need too long to get into them, let's fix some serverside attack patterns for people to use on a key stroke, so everyone can contribute in combat from the start.'
Then we soon have a nice arcade game: LOG IN AND PWN - no effort required!

Learning how to use the skills you've earned in-game to kill people is fun and interesting. Learning how to code complex triggers in order to survive combat situations is, for most people, not fun or interesting. Diminishing parts of the game that are unfun and uninteresting for the vast majority of people is a good thing.

Veyrzhul:

I'm rather suspicious of this whole project. In my opinion, this should stop at what firstaid does and go no further.

If someone cannot dive into the short nexus manual (at least it used to be rather concise when I was using it now and then) to create some basic aliases and triggers for sipping and other things, they will not muster the energy to get anywhere in combat, anyway.

I just have this fear that once this curing system is finished, the next step could easily be to say 'Oh man, our skills are way too complicated and people need too long to get into them, let's fix some serverside attack patterns for people to use on a key stroke, so everyone can contribute in combat from the start.'
Then we soon have a nice arcade game: LOG IN AND PWN - no effort required!

If you think Nexus can keep up in combat, then you haven't used nexus in a while.

As for your fear of the future. We have stratagems already to do that.

Did starcraft require less skill because someone made a mouse with macros and more buttons? No, the skills required just shifted into other areas, and tournaments still happen.

FirstAid, Stratagems, and several other recent additions really do reduce the cost of entry into combat. However, Lusternia combat is, and I'm sure always will be, very complex. We'll make it easier on the non-coders with efforts like this, but the client-side scripting is never going to be replaced in terms of effectiveness and scope.

At this point, I'd say the lessons and equipment required to get into combat is the bigger hurdle.

Nexus was always enough to let you bash. And it was always enough to participate in combat, even if you'll naturally drop fairly fast in some situations and can't really compete directly 1v1. But let's be honest, anyone who doesn't want to spend some credits (which can easily be earned just by influencing - nexus is enough for that, too) for a real curing system probably won't get far in combat with or without a system due to lack of dedication.

I've never played Starcraft, but of course it requires less skill in certain areas if you have macros. And I'm not saying arcade games don't require skill, they're just not what I wanted to play when I first started playing Lusternia.

And Iasmos: Lessons, yes, equipment, not so much. You need some levels, that's for sure, and once you have enough levels to be able to compete, you should have earned enough money for weapons/greatrobes/a shield/a full set of curatives.

Nexus can't handle triggers which fire on the prompt, at least not for long periods of time. Anytime lots of things start happening more than once every second, nexus just freezes up. Startagems and the autocuring basically replaces prompt based triggers. (well most of them)

And it doesn't just help nexus users, it also helps anyone who lives in lag infested areas.

And no, the macros did not reduce the skill needed in starcraft, it just made macros a necessary part of the game. Metal baseball bats did not reduce the skill needed to play baseball, it just required that everyone use metal bats. Buying a system from somebody does not show dedication to combat, it only reflects a particular lifestyle. And creates a very bizarre side economic system for game playing.

Your baseball comparison falls short. Without being an expert in either baseball or physics, changing the bat material probably did not reduce or even greatly change the technique required to swing one.

Macros remove the need to do certain things manually. So you won't need to learn to effectively manual all that any more. That's okay up to a point (like removing the need for manual curing by using a system). It's not okay if it becomes a tendency to automatize everything.

daganev:

Buying a system from somebody does not show dedication to combat

I never said it did. I did say that if you feel like having to buy one is just asking too much, that shows a lack of dedication, given the ease to earn the required credits. That goes with the implication that the person in question also did not code one or obtain a free one (which may or may not be available) and is now feeling that the lack of having a good system is somehow a hurdle for entering combat.

The Internet is.a wonderful thing, you don't have to be an expert to know things.. http://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/bats/NCAA-stats.html

Anyway, there are a myriad of reasons to not want to rely on third party systems. The credits to purchase one isn't one of them.

As someone with an affliction heavy fighting tactic, I like this idea.

Let more people in and try the water. If they like it they can get a real system and get artifacts.

Also, if your system locks up, you have a back up while you try to stumble to safety.

This is a game and games should be fun. In my first lusty fight I got hit with haemophilia and bled to death in about 10 seconds flat. Wasn't a lot of fun.

Llandros:

As someone with an affliction heavy fighting tactic, I like this idea.

Let more people in and try the water. If they like it they can get a real system and get artifacts.

Also, if your system locks up, you have a back up while you try to stumble to safety.

This is a game and games should be fun. In my first lusty fight I got hit with haemophilia and bled to death in about 10 seconds flat. Wasn't a lot of fun.

For me it goes further than that. I want to design my offense around perfect curing. I want to take advantage of priority curing, like giving someone slickness just to force them to use a herb balance instead of using that herb to cure something causing massive bleeding. It makes it more fun that way for me.
It also makes it harder to find people to test my offense on, if only a small section of the population is able to cure well.

daganev:

I want to design my offense around perfect curing.

No system, no matter how good you think it is will ever provide "perfect curing" - There are simply too many attributes to combat in place, some specifically designed to ensure that exactly this will never be a possibility. It's what keeps combat fun.

While I've not had much chance to play around with autocuring of yet , I rather do like the whole idea of it and the potential to assist in entry. So thank you.

As to the discussion/argument regarding third-party systems, honestly if to play a game effectively I'm "required" to use a thirdparty system just to stay alive then I won't. In my opinion that state of affairs denotes something fundamentally wrong with the situation . You should have everything you need to play as part of the game proper, with the aliases/macros/scripts/whathaveyou serving as simplification not necessity.

Draylor:


No system, no matter how good you think it is will ever provide "perfect curing" - There are simply too many attributes to combat in place, some specifically designed to ensure that exactly this will never be a possibility. It's what keeps combat fun.

perfect doesn't have to mean perfect. It's just much easier to type than, "optimal curing given the current set of afflictions you have at the moment"

As someone who lives in a lag infested area, server side autocuring is almost always going to be better than client side autocuring.

I never said it did. I did say that if you feel like having to buy one is just asking too much, that shows a lack of dedication, given the ease to earn the required credits. That goes with the implication that the person in question also did not code one or obtain a free one (which may or may not be available) and is now feeling that the lack of having a good system is somehow a hurdle for entering combat.

Not everyone has the time to learn how to code, or enjoys doing so. Free systems are not avaliable for most clients, and the last time I looked (to be fair, about a year ago), the cheapest system that was considered decent for combat was around 50 credits. That might be easy to obtain for experienced players, but for newer players unable to access the high paying bashing grounds that is no easy feat. Why should combat only be avaliable to dedicated players? I feel like the innocence mechanic implies that PvP combat is supposed to be a part of the game from level 20 up. (though I could be wrong there)


Back on the autocuring topic:

I don't know if it's feasable or not, but would it be possible to get a GMCP variable to list all the afflictions that firstaid thinks you have? It's not too hard to script around if it's not possible, but it could be a nice little addition.

AG's 30 credits, but it's kinda meh right now because Ethelon's doing a revamp of the whole thing instead of doing regular updates.

On the other end of the spectrum is Vadi's M&M system, which is 80 credits but is supposed to be really really good.

Mine is free, but it's only for dedicated Serens.