Firstaid was -never- intended to be a total curing option that simply replaces a client system. It is merely an "entry" into combat, if you will. So far as I can remember, the time for each autocure was tested thoroughly and decided to be at a level where it has a tangible benefit, but at the same time does not negate the usefulness of certain combat techniques and methods. The affliction messages are fine as they are. Again, it was never the intent that -all- would be included. I personally think autocuring is fine as it is and I would find myself not supporting any recommendations to improve it further. Want to cure better? Code your own system or buy one.

Honestly, I would support an extension of aff-messages. I see no reason why not all would be included; the only thing accomplished by not including them all is that people just entering combat will have to spend a lot of time hunting for affliction lines, and what's the fun in that when you're new?

Draylor:

Firstaid was -never- intended to be a total curing option that simply replaces a client system. It is merely an "entry" into combat, if you will. So far as I can remember, the time for each autocure was tested thoroughly and decided to be at a level where it has a tangible benefit, but at the same time does not negate the usefulness of certain combat techniques and methods. The affliction messages are fine as they are. Again, it was never the intent that -all- would be included. I personally think autocuring is fine as it is and I would find myself not supporting any recommendations to improve it further. Want to cure better? Code your own system or buy one.

The question is not strictly what it was intended to be but what it should be. Being able to cure unhidden, unconditional afflictions without having a system won't impact higher level combat at all but it would increase the number of people who attempt higher level combat.

As such, regardless of what the intent was I think it should cure unhidden, unconditional afflictions without a significant delay.

I don't think that what it should be is your decision, frankly.

There was a whole lot of debate on having autocuring at all when the project started, on the forums and in envoys. Many options were discussed and various types of autocuring were proposed. In other words, the admins and envoys went through very many 'should be' situations, and one was chosen (by the admins).

Unless I'm mistaken (I'm going to test it out more later today), the current system simply autoactivates FIRSTAID every so often? That would explain the delay, but then it's a burst of curing anyways. It won't be perfect against certain types of afflictions, or against dedicated affliction classes, but I don't think it really should be, honestly. At this point, having automatic vitals/affliction curing to the point that anyone can pick up the game and bash, or pick up the game and participate in group combat (provided they aren't the focus) is a fantastic boost. Once it's all the way out, it may improve or change form, or it may not.

Hopefully, people can get over the "I was hazed, so you must also be hazed" mentality that so often hinders new players from joining games such as this one.

^^

:lol: Completing all the affliction lines not included in the config option is kind of like hazing...

it's not even remotely close to that kind of situation.

This is a game, it is -intended- to be challenging. Conflict is an integral part of this game and learning how to take part of that is important.

Could it be made easier, yeah sure, but does it need to be spoonfed? Definitely not. I love Lusternia because it is challenging. Making a autocure system that handles all known afflictions, especially with the ability to queue it and stuff, will take the fun out of it. Talan wrote a really good post about this at one point, let me see if I can find it.

It seems very similar to hazing to me. People who already have systems don't have to deal with the tedium of gathering affliction lines or paying someone else money for something that they have trouble understanding. More established players force the less established to go through a process that is not fun before they can start having fun. I think calling that hazing is to put it gently.

Making things unnecessarily hard for no reason other that to not baby people is silly. If you can make something that is unrelated to effort within the scope of the game easier, why not make it easier? It doesn't make you a better person or a better player to have sat down while offline and sorted through a big list of things, or to have (also offline) coded your own system.

Making choices while playing (such as DIAGnosing when appropriate), on the other hand, DOES mean you are a better/smarter player, and this all requires that you make those sorts of choices.

EDIT: While on the topic, doing things back when they were harder doesn't necessarily make you better either. It just means you are older. I know plenty of people who had to do everything 'before it was easy' (i.e, anyone who went to school before the 90's), that doesn't make everyone that age or older smarter or better.

EDIT2: To clarify, I was one of the people arguing against a 'perfect' autocuring that mimic'd a fully functional player-side system.

I'd like to note that Aetolia has a pretty stunning example of auto-firstaid. It cures all non-hidden afflictions and autosips very quickly, accounting only for standard lag, and while it does not prioritize particularly well, or diagnose, it does so well enough that low level combat and all hunting is feasible using nothing else. I love being able to tell newbies to CONFIG FIRSTAID ON before they begin hunting. It really makes the game easier on first time players.

Despite this, Aetolia has fairly healthy conflict, and conflict that even lower level players can join in on.

foolofsound:

I'd like to note that Aetolia has a pretty stunning example of auto-firstaid. It cures all non-hidden afflictions and autosips very quickly, accounting only for standard lag, and while it does not prioritize particularly well, or diagnose, it does so well enough that low level combat and all hunting is feasible using nothing else. I love being able to tell newbies to CONFIG FIRSTAID ON before they begin hunting. It really makes the game easier on first time players.

Despite this, Aetolia has fairly healthy conflict, and conflict that even lower level players can join in on.

I think you confused Aetolia with Imperian :) Imperian has a fast system while Aetolia has a ticks system. Aetolia's firstaid system doesn't get used much whereas almost everyone uses Imperian's system.

The thing about Imperian is that most afflictions are not hidden and don't have conditions on being cured (besides locks), so I think the curing system there has a much greater impact than the exact same thing in Lusternia would have.

No, actually, he meant Aetolia.

Aetolia has a normal full curing system that mimics a system in all curative things, though not in pro-active things like defense upkeep or parrying. It also has a simulated ping time, so that it dosn't beat out systems entirely. A player with a system and a good ping will be able to get their commands in before the autocuring tries anything, but pretty much any lag means that they server gets there first.

The thing is that the other IRE games have far less curing balances and all around less to cure with. Simple afflictions (like stupidity) are far worse because they have to be cured on the same balance as every other affliction (herb), instead of having purgative/salve/focus/smoke/herb like we have.

EDIT: Come to think of it, I'm pretty sure that the autocuring feature of firstaid works like it does because it's an autocuring feature of firstaid, not a totally separate thing. It was coded (I figure, from testing it with Iosai) to just run the Firstaid function as its base, and go from there. That would explain why it works like it does, and why (from a practical, coding effort vs. payout standpoint) it's not likely to change to a delayed-system style.

Jello:

I think you confused Aetolia with Imperian

Pretty sure I meant Aetolia, seeing as I've been playing Aetolia the last few months, and have used the feature personally.

You guys are right, they buffed Aetolia's firstaid system at one point. Imperian has the same thing though, with simulated lag timers etc. This makes Lusternia the odd man out at this point.

I still think Lusternia would benefit from a server-side system the most since it is a good thing to have and this is the game where it would probably have the smallest impact on high level PvP.

Sidd:

it's not even remotely close to that kind of situation.

This is a game, it is -intended- to be challenging. Conflict is an integral part of this game and learning how to take part of that is important.

Could it be made easier, yeah sure, but does it need to be spoonfed? Definitely not. I love Lusternia because it is challenging. Making a autocure system that handles all known afflictions, especially with the ability to queue it and stuff, will take the fun out of it. Talan wrote a really good post about this at one point, let me see if I can find it.

There is plenty of challenge in combat. Going through the hazing process of finding the right system, isn't necessary. It used to be, servers were slower back then, and the internet had more lag, but now it seems that it isn't.

You still have the whole offense side of combat, and knowing when an offensive hit works as a defensive measure against a certain class, team tactics, and a whole other slew of things that make the game challenging.

Sidd:

it's not even remotely close to that kind of situation.

This is a game, it is -intended- to be challenging. Conflict is an integral part of this game and learning how to take part of that is important.

Could it be made easier, yeah sure, but does it need to be spoonfed? Definitely not. I love Lusternia because it is challenging. Making a autocure system that handles all known afflictions, especially with the ability to queue it and stuff, will take the fun out of it. Talan wrote a really good post about this at one point, let me see if I can find it.

God, and you people wonder why this game can't retain new players worth a damn

Here is the quote from Talan I feel is appropiate

Talan:

Having to respond to game output is part of the game. Players need to understand that from the word go. It is as true for a mob hitting you as it is for a guild or city leader addressing you. There is a response for each that has to be made by the player. That there even exist these ready to wear systems, let alone multiple ones on your choice of client, is a total novelty. No hard-coded mollycoddling, please. Firstaid is wonderful for people getting started, and even as a failsafe for these systems. It is enough.

Also, I've been playing Aetolia a lot lately. The autocuring there doesn't account for lag at all, it take a full second before it cure anything, even after it regains balance if you multiple afflictions. I'm sure it helps at the most basic level and that's all that's needed. It doesn't need to be anymore than it is now. Firstaid is fine.

What I mind is this idea that 'it's hazing' or that it's somehow the lack of said serverside systems that contribute to the lack of player retention.

Comparatively at this moment, Lusternia has 74 people, Aetolia has 76 people and Imperian has 49. Imperian/Aetolia curing systems have been around for some time now, doesn't seem to have made a huge difference.

What would be interesting would be if some site showed average players over time.

I don't think that an auto-curing system is going to make a "huge" difference in of itself, but I think it is one of a number of things that needs to happen in order for the game to grow instead of passing through a painfully slow decline. Lusternia is like the Japanese economy right now, we have a yearly growth rate of -0.35% or something.

Sidd:

What would be interesting would be if some site showed average players over time.

http://www.mudstats.com

Ouch, that suggests Lusternia lost 20 average online players over the last year? I didn't think it was that bad.