Shamarah:

All of the things I listed are, to the best of my knowledge, completely random. I just think your description of warrior PK style comes off as a bit woe-is-me, especially relative to your descriptions of the others - all classes have serious shortcomings, and it just happens that one of warriors' shortcomings is luck.

Sleeping, as far as I know is based on how much endurance you have, and other abilities. I don't think it's random, just arbitrary. And I thought those diseases tick once every X seconds on a rotation of tick/don't tick? (atleast that's how it was explained to me when I was an ur'guard, things change obviously)

I completely agree... now if you could list those shortcomings, I could update the original post.

Druids, Guardians and Bards all have access to Alchemy.

Druids and Guardians can specialize in Lorecraft, while Bards can specialize in Brewmastery.

Lehki:

Druids, Guardians and Bards all have access to Alchemy.

Druids and Guardians can specialize in Lorecraft, while Bards can specialize in Brewmastery.

Gaurdians or Wiccans? Or Both?

daganev:

Gaurdians or Wiccans? Or Both?

He may have meant Wiccans, not Guardians.

daganev:

Gaurdians or Wiccans? Or Both?

He meant wiccans. You either have to have the nature skill or be a bard with low magic to learn alchemy.

Honestly, I'd call Monk and Bard to be the cheapest archetypes. Read: lowest investment needed to be viable in bashing/PK. +Influencing for bards, too.

daganev:


Good idea.

Anyone know if this is also true for Hart? Does totem renewal in general require this? Do guardians require this at all? (I'll add a note about cavalier as well)

No, Stag does not require the same time investment. The newest guardians have something similar, though they aren't reliant on something that can decay if you're not paying attention to the date (I have a bad habit of this). They gather gems(?) and flesh from their respective cosmic planes.

daganev:


Can you put a number on it?

That's pretty difficult and wholly dependent on what you are actually attaining, but a few things to take into consideration are:

Tri-trans. (This is generally a given, sure)
Trans Influence. (Bards are mostly high charisma.)

As for artifacts:

Gripping (150cr)
Custom Instrument (If you want this kind of thing - 50cr)
Influence Runes (100cr each)
Life Runes (Bards are generally very squishy, so this needs taking into account - 350-1400cr)
Magical Enhancement (400 - 1600cr)

Aside from when I'm up against someone like a tattooed monk with harmony+psymet and get to the "Rawr, why can't I maintain heavy+ wounding on you!' state that is just disheartening, (Wobou/Xena I'm looking at you!), I really enjoy warrior combat and think it is the least linear while still having an overall 'stick prone -> behead/other' simplicity to it.

The warrior special report I think has reduced a lot of the worst aspects about being a warrior, and I would say the runes are less of the 'must have' they were before (of course they make it easier). Still suffering a bit from 'monk envy' in reliability of landing afflictions, but that gap was lessened with the more reliable swings and no miss on power move changes.

Gold cost is exorbitant yes. :(

Draylor:


That's pretty difficult and wholly dependent on what you are actually attaining, but a few things to take into consideration are:

Tri-trans. (This is generally a given, sure)
Trans Influence. (Bards are mostly high charisma.)

As for artifacts:

Gripping (150cr)
Custom Instrument (If you want this kind of thing - 50cr)
Influence Runes (100cr each)
Life Runes (Bards are generally very squishy, so this needs taking into account - 350-1400cr)
Magical Enhancement (400 - 1600cr)

Never actually been a bard, so maybe I'm wrong, but I really don't feel like any of those artifacts are necessary to be competitive.

@Ushaara: What is the gold cost you are referring to with Warriors? My alt is only level 60 and I have an awesome helm and field plate and a masterwork bashing katana already. Other than that I just have to buy the same vials, herbs, and enchantments everyone else does.

Why do you say large credit investment for mages? As far as artifacts go, you need a greater demesne rune (200cr) and that's it. The skill investment will be the same as anyone else.

diamondais:

No, Stag does not require the same time investment. The newest guardians have something similar, though they aren't reliant on something that can decay if you're not paying attention to the date (I have a bad habit of this). They gather gems(?) and flesh from their respective cosmic planes.

The Crow time investment asks you to go bash, doesn't it generate fairly quickly through bashing?


A few notes:
- I would call the credit investment for druids at low, but not lowest. Normal then. All you really need is the demesne rune, absolutely everything else is icing that you don't need to be competitive.

-Bards have no artifacts that functionally increase their competitive, class-skill power, outside of stuff like magic-damage runes. I played a bard for some time with only utility artis like the nose and map, and was a-ok as far as PK went.

-I wouldn't really put warriors (or anyone) at a high gold investment status. What that says to me is that a large portion of your ongoing gold generation is being eaten by your skills. Buying a weapon is a very comparatively rare event, I'm not really sure it qualifies as a significant ongoing gold drain. In general, gold costs should be de-empasized because the system is positively flooded with gold, it means very little in the long run for a class.

-On that note, I wouldn't really call any given classes focus 'Trade'. Tradespeople are in all guilds, there aren't really any guilds/archetypes focused around trade.

-Don't call tertiaries 'Specilizations'. They are tertiary skills, specs are things like 'Pyromancy' or even 'Harmonics'.

-I'd split Guardians into old and new styles, as semi-separate archetypes, at least in concept.


EDIT: Ninja'd. Yeah, Mages/Druids need the demesne rune, and nothing else. Druids don't even benefit all that much from the damage runes, as the only time that they are gonna damage kill you is when you're already locked down.

I think saying a mage "needs" a greater demesne rune is pretty strong language. Especially if you we're talking about 1v1 fights, you don't need a demesne that big. If you're demesning and area for a raid or defense, it does help to have a bigger one, but still not needed.

Oh mages don't. Druids really kinda do.

Most archetypes listed do not needs runes.

I could TK you to death with 0 artifacts.

A bard can kill you with no artifacts.

Etc.


Warriors, to a lesser extent monks, and meld rune for druids. That is all you realllly need.

Don't mages and Druids need high environment skill?

Also for specializations, I put any non-trade skill that you have a choice over. If you have a better suggestion for that name that applies to main skills and tertiaries, let me know.

No, Environment isn't a useful skillset. Outside of tumble, it was near to the last thing I bothered to spend in, as it is one of the least useful common skillsets.

Use 'Skill choices'. You may want to include a link to the skills page of the wiki (woefully out of date) or Xiel's Page, and a list of ALL the skills that archetype contains.

Enyalida:

Oh mages don't. Druids really kinda do.

Hrm, why is that? How do you kill someone faster in a big demesne?

It's more that Mages are not tied to demesne and Druids are. Pair that with the only real movement hindering being briars for druids, if we have a 10 room demesne, you can figure that you're at most 3 rooms from an exit at any given time, and if you leave the demesne... you're immune to druids.

EDIT: In other words, if the enemy isn't moving at all, it doesn't help. But to be effective in PK at all, you'll want more than 10 rooms, as the limited rooms will really be hurting.

EDIT2: Compare to the aforementioned TK thing, where the mage can chase out of their demesne without removing their chance at success. Druid chases out of demesne, loses access to their entire primary skillset (both specced and unspecced), and all of their supportive abilities, as well as losing the ability to use their instakill (thornlashes), put on their aff lock kill (sap), or maintain allergies (to support sap). Remember, leaving a forest actually cures out of all thornlashes!

I'm sensing why a list like this has not been made before. Too many different opinions about whats playable and what isn't. I feel that many of the opinions expressed so far are looking at the end game of the archetype rather than from the perspective of a new player who needs to understand what sort of play experience and investment they are getting themselves into. Many new warrior guild members are often overwhelmed by how much they need to get for their equipment. They proud and excited about their first 5,000 gold that they spent so much time to get, along with everything else, and then they are told to get another 50,000

I remember for myself, I couldn't hit anything until I transed either combat or knighthood, sounds like that was changed though.

How far up are the strong/est bashing skills in the various archetypes? Are they all at trans of the main skill, or are some lower down?