Morbo:

hamsters have been removed from popular circulation, (I don't know waht you're talking about throwing convoke in, convoke is just a summon replica) But stratagem was specifically made to stack abilities together. That's how I am using it. I am pretty sure this is exactly how it was intended to be used

Convoke, convergence; whatever that Loralaria ability is named. They're both cons anyways.

Whoa whoa whoa, why bring up reality.

Here's the difference between reality and stratagem abuse:

Reality does what it says it will do (moves people to random rooms in an area), there's no hidden trick to it.

Stratagems didn't say that they would allow illusions to be done without prompts in between.

Idea: Make it so that WEAVE woven into a stratagem works, but if you're off-any-kind-of-balance it doesn't go through.

Thus weave still works off-balance if you use it standalone, but when in a Stratagem, it won't (unless it's the very first command or strung together with things that don't consume balances).

This disables combining it with things in a stratagem, doesn't break the combinations that people have been using prior, but doesn't add in precedent of specifically blocking things from going into stratagems period.

I'd much rather stay on topic than start flinging round age old, "X did this 4.25 years ago, so I can do this now."

It matters none. Let's discuss how we are going to address this "use" of stratagems.

@Lilia: Yes, I stand by my statement. This -is- being used in ways that was totally not intended. It is fundamentally changing how illusions work. Are you telling me for one minute that when stratagem was being coded that illusions were considered?

Shuyin, That's like saying Reality should have a line that says "Use this over and over in enemy godrealms to enter their temple" It's just an extension of how the skill works

Just put a prompt before the queued line. Problem solved.

Simplest and best idea is to just hide lines that are "detected". Like "An illusion almost tricks you, but your trained eye shatters it before you." That way, systems never have to account for it in the first place.

Morbo:

Shuyin, That's like saying Reality should have a line that says "Use this over and over in enemy godrealms to enter their temple" It's just an extension of how the skill works

Of course, godrealms have everything to do with abusing stratagem.

Lilia:

I don't see how this is 'breaking' illusions at all, you're really being over dramatic there. The idea behind illusions in combat is making your opponent think twice and spend time double checking things. I think this is just is a new clever strategy that people are getting bent out of shape over. Systems will figure out how to handle it and we'll all move on, just like any other time something new has made people cry foul.

I also think statements like "having them act in ways that was totally not intended" are over-reaching, because I seriously doubt you know 100% what the admins do and do not intend when they add or change things. So try a different argument, until someone with the authority to do so can clarify intentions.

Actually I disagree, I just spent a bunch of credits on an artifact that gave me so much movement resistance, I was next to impossible to force move and the game was changed because it was felt it was too much. This was changed after attention was brought to it, I know some players were not happy about it. So players bringing up concerns stating opinions that they do not believe it was intended is 100% completely legitimate.

Also, it was clever, props to Morbo for thinking about it, caught me by surprise, but it won't happen again, I'm sure there are other situations where this will be of benefit, but it's a one trick pony illusion. People could use it once, get a silly kill, epeen to their friends, but people will know better after that. It's definitely possible to avoid, but I don't think it was intended when stratagems were being coded.

Rivius:

Simplest and best idea is to just hide lines that are "detected". Like "An illusion almost tricks you, but your trained eye shatters it before you." That way, systems never have to account for it in the first place.

I like that idea a lot, actually.

Enough that I will throw it a Like.

Edit: Though thinking about it, that would affect use of illusions in, say, rituals. It'd be better if it appended that text string in front of the illusion line (but on the same line).

Example: Your trained eye notes the flaws in what is obviously an illusion: *ILLUSION HAPPENS HERE*.

Draylor:

I'd much rather stay on topic than start flinging round age old, "X did this 4.25 years ago, so I can do this now."

It matters none. Let's discuss how we are going to address this "use" of stratagems.

@Lilia: Yes, I stand by my statement. This -is- being used in ways that was totally not intended. It is fundamentally changing how illusions work. Are you telling me for one minute that when stratagem was being coded that illusions we considered?

I think that when affmessages and standard cure lines were being coded, illusions were not considered at all, and got majorly nerfed because of it. Someone has found a way to use a new addition in a way that makes illusions stronger. I don't see the problem here. They specifically allowed command stacking in stratagems, so this seems like a perfectly acceptable use to me. That's not saying they may not realize it was a bad idea now that it has been brought up, but it is currently in line with all the evidence -I- to judge intentions by.

I think Rivius' solution is the best, not sure if it's possible though.

RE: reality - here we go again, reality is/was used to move people around an area, that is what reality is meant for. It doesn't matter when/how/why, but the fact is that reality's purpose is to move people around. Stratagems are meant for queing actions for those in lag/unfortunate situations, it isnot meant to be a way to make illusions super awesome.

I have a ball.
Balls are for kicking.
I kicked the ball, therefore I am using it for its purpose

VS.

I have a ball.
Balls are for kicking.
I ate the ball, therefore I am using it for its purpose.

^That's the argument in a nutshell between reality and stratagems.

Lilia:


I think that when affmessages and standard cure lines were being coded, illusions were not considered at all, and got majorly nerfed because of it. Someone has found a way to use a new addition in a way that makes illusions stronger. I don't see the problem here. They specifically allowed command stacking in stratagems, so this seems like a perfectly acceptable use to me. That's not saying they may not realize it was a bad idea now that it has been brought up, but it is currently in line with all the evidence -I- to judge intentions by.

What the heck? No.

When affmessages and curing were first put in, illusions were definitely considered. Sior specifically didn't put it on everything so that illusions would not get completely broken (which ended up leaving affmessages mostly pointless, but that's another matter). Sior had a huge soft spot for mages and illusions, the whole discussion around their implementation was centered on that skillset...

Affmessages were specifically designed to be unreliable so that you couldn't completely code around illusions.

Sojiro:

I think Rivius' solution is the best, not sure if it's possible though.

RE: reality - here we go again, reality is/was used to move people around an area, that is what reality is meant for. It doesn't matter when/how/why, but the fact is that reality's purpose is to move people around. Stratagems are meant for queing actions for those in lag/unfortunate situations, it isnot meant to be a way to make illusions super awesome.

I have a ball.
Balls are for kicking.
I kicked the ball, therefore I am using it for its purpose

VS.

I have a ball.
Balls are for kicking.
I ate the ball, therefore I am using it for its purpose.

^That's the argument in a nutshell between reality and stratagems.

Nice analogy. :D

Sidd:

Also, it was clever, props to Morbo for thinking about it, caught me by surprise, but it won't happen again, I'm sure there are other situations where this will be of benefit, but it's a one trick pony illusion. People could use it once, get a silly kill, epeen to their friends, but people will know better after that. It's definitely possible to avoid

I dunno, I don't wanna see psionicists use full combos with an illusion line at the end via stratagem. Most guilds will have some way to make use of this in one or more good ways (although few people have a wand), and while you can work around most of those things, probably, it makes illusion detection a lot weaker if you do (since you'll have to rely on the curing system to do the double check, which, depending on the illusion, can hinder you more or less).

Vadi:

p5th snippet

Draylor plays Graeira, mandolin of Celestial Light and directs the exquisite notes towards you.
The lyrical sound invokes a strange longing for Draylor.
Your eye immediately notices the flaws in what is obviously an illusion.

While I do see your point, I have an issue with your examples. As far as I can tell, that first example of yours would be a true illusion catch all the time. Basic illusions require and consume equilibrium, though they are castable off-balance. As p5th is an equilibrium-taking action, basic weave illusion would not be able to be stacked onto it in a stratagem, since the p5th would be putting the bard off-eq. As for the second, both the p5th and illusion-detection lines would be illusions, as your prompt shows you are deaf both before and afterwards. I just feel if you're going to raise a point like this, perhaps use actual examples instead of creatively writing one?

Xenthos:

What the heck? No.

When affmessages and curing were first put in, illusions were definitely considered. Sior specifically didn't put it on everything so that illusions would not get completely broken (which ended up leaving affmessages mostly pointless, but that's another matter). Sior had a huge soft spot for mages and illusions, the whole discussion around their implementation was centered on that skillset...

Affmessages were specifically designed to be unreliable so that you couldn't completely code around illusions.

And this is no longer the case. So try again.

Raeri:

While I do see your point, I have an issue with your examples. As far as I can tell, that first example of yours would be a true illusion catch all the time. Basic illusions require and consume equilibrium, though they are castable off-balance. As p5th is an equilibrium-taking action, basic weave illusion would not be able to be stacked onto it in a stratagem, as the p5th would be putting the bard off-eq. As for the second, both the p5th and illusiondetection lines would be illusions, as your prompt shows you are deaf both before and afterwards. I just feel if you're going to raise a point like this, perhaps use actual examples instead of creatively writing one?

Xenthos sunders your head, fracturing your skull. Also, crushing your chest, because he hefted. Don't forget the poisons! By the way, this was flagged as an illusion because he did it in a stratagem with the illusion wand.

Lilia:

And this is no longer the case. So try again.

Your argument was that when they were being put in, illusions were not considered.

I countered that.

Try again?

Oh good lord the example is not the point, here, feel free to use this one:

Shuyin throws back his head and blows a stream of slime out of his nose and onto you.
Your eye immediately notices the flaws in what is obviously an illusion.

vs.

Shuyin throws back his head and blows a stream of slime out of his nose and onto you.
<6164/6164h 7668/7695m 8722/8794e 10p 99%w |ex|k|Mantis >-
Your eye immediately notices the flaws in what is obviously an illusion.