Xenthos2012-07-23 12:48:24
It makes it very difficult to correct that statement without starting a new thread. :(
The cost of the runes has changed; in fact, the cost of all warrior runes went through an adjustment. The damage conversion runes in question went from 350 to 250, because it was realized that warrior weapon runes were overpriced.
Unfortunately, they still are overpriced, significantly so.
Further, as warrior damage has been reduced by a very large degree since the weapons were out and warriors moved more towards a wounding archetype, the value of these runes in PvP has also been reduced; so while their primary point from an Administrative end might be PvP, from an actual practical standpoint now that mobs have resistances (and occasionally very high ones) that is their primary use these days.
Thus, there is indeed a point to the thread staying open. More than one, in fact.
1) To convey what these runes are mostly being purchased for (and thus why the requested information should be provided); and
2) To convey that warrior weapon runes are still far too highly priced in comparison to their counterparts.
Let's take a quick look at them!
Generic Caster Runes:
Great Rune of Shielding: 350 credits.
Great Rune of Esoteric Authority: 1600 credits, affects all magic-sourced attacks.
Warrior Runes:
Vernal Champion x2: 1200 credits.
Vernal Knight x2: 1200 credits.
*NOTE: I am counting the Great Rune of Gripping as being essentially a 'frill' along with the Great Runes of Bleeding; sure they will add something, but they're not really 'important' as things go. If you want to count them, add on 250 for Warriors and 150 for caster-classes.
Initial Outlay
Casters:
1950
Warriors:
2400
If the caster wants to switch to another archetype, they can do so for no additional credit cost; simply use the shield-runed item as their shield (instead of an actual shield) and the magic damage rune continues to work its magic.
For warriors, however, each additional weapon set is an additional 2400 credits... or a 1500 credit pliers purchase. We'll pretend that the warrior is somewhat smart and uses pliers instead of 2400 credits to make a weapon set for each warrior archetype they skillflex.
Outlay
Casters: 1950
Warriors: 3900
Then, for the "PvP damage runes" as you put them (and you need to buy 2 to have any noticeable effect at all):
Magic Damage (500)
Fire Damage (500)
Cold Damage (500)
Poison Damage (500)
Lightning Damage (500)
Let's say the warrior only picks one of these, because he's not made of money (though, now that he has pliers, he easily could do more)
That jumps the warrior credit cost up to 4400 credits just to be able to have the same sort of flexibility available to casting classes for less than half that price.
Honestly, the absolute best thing that I can see from a player standpoint would be to rework it as follows:
1) Create a new 25-credit "attunement" rune for warrior weapons. One can be attached to each 1h weapon, or a 2h weapon requires 2 for full effect.
2) Remove all warrior weapon runes from all warrior weapons, and replace them with one 25-credit attunement rune (refund as happened previously when the weapon runes were tweaked).
3) Make warrior weapon runes not attach to weapons any more, but instead to Standards.
4) You use the attunement rune to attune a weapon to your standard; a weapon can only be attuned to 1 standard, but many weapons can be attuned to the same standard.
5) When attuned, the weapon receives the benefit of the runes affixed to the standard; for a 2h weapon, if there is only one rune it receives only half-benefit.
At this point, you can actually raise the price of (some of) the warrior runes; you could even double the cost of the stat and wounding runes if you really wanted to (since warriors would only need to buy 1 now, instead of 2), but it'd probably be better to just make the highest level 1000 credits or so (bringing the credit cost to around 2050 credits, +50 credits for each additional weapon set).
Leave the elemental runes at the same price as they are, single-only, only one can be attached to a standard at a time.
Reduce the price of pliers to around 500cr, since without Warriors using them to plop runes around on a regular basis between weapon sets, their value plummets to a point where they might be something nice to have for other classes (move a shield rune around, move jewellery runes around, and so on).
Like I said in the last thread, I can dream; even with this change, being a warrior would be more expensive (comparing elementals & bleeding runes to the other class-specific artifacts such as music runes), but no longer more than twice-as.
Eventru:
The cost of the runes hasn't changed since they were added - long before resistances/weaknesses. Their primary point has always been PvP.
Ardmore got his response from Support, so there's really not much point in this thread remaining open.
The cost of the runes has changed; in fact, the cost of all warrior runes went through an adjustment. The damage conversion runes in question went from 350 to 250, because it was realized that warrior weapon runes were overpriced.
Unfortunately, they still are overpriced, significantly so.
Further, as warrior damage has been reduced by a very large degree since the weapons were out and warriors moved more towards a wounding archetype, the value of these runes in PvP has also been reduced; so while their primary point from an Administrative end might be PvP, from an actual practical standpoint now that mobs have resistances (and occasionally very high ones) that is their primary use these days.
Thus, there is indeed a point to the thread staying open. More than one, in fact.
1) To convey what these runes are mostly being purchased for (and thus why the requested information should be provided); and
2) To convey that warrior weapon runes are still far too highly priced in comparison to their counterparts.
Let's take a quick look at them!
Generic Caster Runes:
Great Rune of Shielding: 350 credits.
Great Rune of Esoteric Authority: 1600 credits, affects all magic-sourced attacks.
Warrior Runes:
Vernal Champion x2: 1200 credits.
Vernal Knight x2: 1200 credits.
*NOTE: I am counting the Great Rune of Gripping as being essentially a 'frill' along with the Great Runes of Bleeding; sure they will add something, but they're not really 'important' as things go. If you want to count them, add on 250 for Warriors and 150 for caster-classes.
Initial Outlay
Casters:
1950
Warriors:
2400
If the caster wants to switch to another archetype, they can do so for no additional credit cost; simply use the shield-runed item as their shield (instead of an actual shield) and the magic damage rune continues to work its magic.
For warriors, however, each additional weapon set is an additional 2400 credits... or a 1500 credit pliers purchase. We'll pretend that the warrior is somewhat smart and uses pliers instead of 2400 credits to make a weapon set for each warrior archetype they skillflex.
Outlay
Casters: 1950
Warriors: 3900
Then, for the "PvP damage runes" as you put them (and you need to buy 2 to have any noticeable effect at all):
Magic Damage (500)
Fire Damage (500)
Cold Damage (500)
Poison Damage (500)
Lightning Damage (500)
Let's say the warrior only picks one of these, because he's not made of money (though, now that he has pliers, he easily could do more)
That jumps the warrior credit cost up to 4400 credits just to be able to have the same sort of flexibility available to casting classes for less than half that price.
Honestly, the absolute best thing that I can see from a player standpoint would be to rework it as follows:
1) Create a new 25-credit "attunement" rune for warrior weapons. One can be attached to each 1h weapon, or a 2h weapon requires 2 for full effect.
2) Remove all warrior weapon runes from all warrior weapons, and replace them with one 25-credit attunement rune (refund as happened previously when the weapon runes were tweaked).
3) Make warrior weapon runes not attach to weapons any more, but instead to Standards.
4) You use the attunement rune to attune a weapon to your standard; a weapon can only be attuned to 1 standard, but many weapons can be attuned to the same standard.
5) When attuned, the weapon receives the benefit of the runes affixed to the standard; for a 2h weapon, if there is only one rune it receives only half-benefit.
At this point, you can actually raise the price of (some of) the warrior runes; you could even double the cost of the stat and wounding runes if you really wanted to (since warriors would only need to buy 1 now, instead of 2), but it'd probably be better to just make the highest level 1000 credits or so (bringing the credit cost to around 2050 credits, +50 credits for each additional weapon set).
Leave the elemental runes at the same price as they are, single-only, only one can be attached to a standard at a time.
Reduce the price of pliers to around 500cr, since without Warriors using them to plop runes around on a regular basis between weapon sets, their value plummets to a point where they might be something nice to have for other classes (move a shield rune around, move jewellery runes around, and so on).
Like I said in the last thread, I can dream; even with this change, being a warrior would be more expensive (comparing elementals & bleeding runes to the other class-specific artifacts such as music runes), but no longer more than twice-as.
Xenthos2012-07-23 13:10:26
I guess you'd also have to have some Monk-symbol-thing that can be made and have runes attached to it for Monks as well. Poor Monks.
Eventru2012-07-23 13:38:49
Xenthos:
The cost of the runes has changed; in fact, the cost of all warrior runes went through an adjustment. The damage conversion runes in question went from 350 to 250, because it was realized that warrior weapon runes were overpriced.
A minor quibbling point that doesn't affect the point of the statement - the cost of the runes was set before the weaknesses/resistances went in, and were a justifiable purchase prior to mob resistances/weaknesses.
Xenthos2012-07-23 13:40:07
Eventru:
A minor quibbling point that doesn't affect the point of the statement - the cost of the runes was set before the weaknesses/resistances went in, and were a justifiable purchase prior to mob resistances/weaknesses.
That's my point; they weren't really a justifiable purchase (which is why they got reduced!), and as warrior damage has decreased they have become even less so as PvP is concerned.
While warrior credit runes were reduced in price, they were not reduced enough to actually make any kind of parity with non-warriors (as described in the post above).
Janalon2012-07-23 15:02:57
Xenthos:
I guess you'd also have to have some Monk-symbol-thing that can be made and have runes attached to it for Monks as well. Poor Monks.
I don't want to get caught up in the whole monk vs warrior credit investment debate. However, I do want to interject that weapon runes only impact the spec weapon attacks of a monk's kata. SO... in a typical bashing nekai+nekai+kick, the damage mod rune would only impact the two nekai hits.
Keep in mind that a kick accounts for half of the damage output in PVP and PVE. Whereas two damage mod runes will alter 1/3rd of a warrior damage output, it will only impact 1/6th of a monks composite damage. Yes. Monks pay the same credit price for half the effect.
Of course this point is moot if a monk chooses to go completely unarmed (i.e. punch+punch+kick). So that further decreases the "value" of monks using damage runes for alt damage. This line of thinking brings me back to the rejected report 552. Nothing more needs to be said about that.
Personally I'd love to see monks handled quite separately from warrior weapon runes.
Daganev2012-07-23 18:19:43
For warriors, however, each additional weapon set is an additional 2400 credits... or a 1500 credit pliers purchase. We'll pretend that the warrior is somewhat smart and uses pliers instead of 2400 credits to make a weapon set for each warrior archetype they skillflex.
Or they bought runes before those pliers were an option :)
Enyalida2012-07-23 19:32:32
What was the answer Ardmore got? If it would help clear up the same or similar questions posed by other people...
Silvanus2012-07-23 19:53:16
The answer he got was that they wouldn't give him the answer.
Shamarah2012-07-23 19:56:17
The admin policy of not disclosing numbers has always been strange, but it's even more strange now that it's gradually morphed into disclosing some but not all numbers. It's utterly bizarre how we have access to resistance formulas but not damage formulas.
Ardmore2012-07-23 21:14:10
I feel as if my simple request has gotten out of hand.
That said, I don't fully understand Xenthos' idea, but it sounds as if... it's the exact same as now, except you attach the damage-type mod runes to a banner instead, then tune the weapon to the banner.
That said, I don't fully understand Xenthos' idea, but it sounds as if... it's the exact same as now, except you attach the damage-type mod runes to a banner instead, then tune the weapon to the banner.
Xenthos2012-07-23 21:23:20
Ardmore:
I feel as if my simple request has gotten out of hand.
That said, I don't fully understand Xenthos' idea, but it sounds as if... it's the exact same as now, except you attach the damage-type mod runes to a banner instead, then tune the weapon to the banner.
No, you would attach your runes to a banner and then all of your weapons can be tuned to that banner; thus, it functions more like jewellery runes than weapon runes.
You'd just have to buy one set, which is a heck of a lot better than now.
Unknown2012-07-23 23:09:39
Aetolia deleted and refunded artifact weapons when it was determined that they had an intensely negative effect on warrior combat, so it's not as though IRE is totally unwilling to make sweeping changes when the health of a game in in jeopardy. Warrior costs, and mechanics balanced around that cost, have needed to be looked at for some time, and I feel that Xenthos' idea goes a long way towards parity.
Not to mention that most caster guilds don't require Magic Potency runes in order reach viability, unlike weapon runes for warriors.
Not to mention that most caster guilds don't require Magic Potency runes in order reach viability, unlike weapon runes for warriors.
Sidd2012-07-24 00:32:43
I don't have anything against Xenthos idea, but I do want to dispute that bashing mobs is elemental runes primary use.
Warrior damage (without any modifiers) is cutting/blunt, which also happens to be the two most easily resisted damage types, not only through widely available DMP but also with armour/robes stacking with DMP. Adding elemental runes changes a portion of the damage to the respective type, which in the majority of cases is going to increase damage overall. Dealing more damage translates to more health sipping which means fewer health applications being applied, meaning more wounds. While this isn't a huge change, it's still something to consider with the min/maxing that goes on. They most definitely serve, in my opinion, primarily a PvP function with bashing being secondary.
Warrior damage (without any modifiers) is cutting/blunt, which also happens to be the two most easily resisted damage types, not only through widely available DMP but also with armour/robes stacking with DMP. Adding elemental runes changes a portion of the damage to the respective type, which in the majority of cases is going to increase damage overall. Dealing more damage translates to more health sipping which means fewer health applications being applied, meaning more wounds. While this isn't a huge change, it's still something to consider with the min/maxing that goes on. They most definitely serve, in my opinion, primarily a PvP function with bashing being secondary.
Xenthos2012-07-24 00:42:57
Sidd:
I don't have anything against Xenthos idea, but I do want to dispute that bashing mobs is elemental runes primary use.
Warrior damage (without any modifiers) is cutting/blunt, which also happens to be the two most easily resisted damage types, not only through widely available DMP but also with armour/robes stacking with DMP. Adding elemental runes changes a portion of the damage to the respective type, which in the majority of cases is going to increase damage overall. Dealing more damage translates to more health sipping which means fewer health applications being applied, meaning more wounds. While this isn't a huge change, it's still something to consider with the min/maxing that goes on. They most definitely serve, in my opinion, primarily a PvP function with bashing being secondary.
At this point, buying them for bashing is the primary purpose; warrior damage has been reduced pretty significantly, and converting 33% of a lesser damage total is just not as effective. If you want them for min-maxing, then sure you still need to buy a set, but how many warriors these days are putting down 4400 credits on a set of weapons for min-maxing?
Not many.
If you're looking into elemental runes now, odds are you're doing so to try and get away from the cut / blunt damage type (because, if you're not a Cavalier, a huge portion of mobs in this game are greatly resistant to you).
Edit: By the by, I'm not saying they have no use in PvP, as they do. I am saying that their use in PvP is being overshadowed by their use in PvE now, especially for those buying / thinking about buying more than one set of elementals. And, either way, they (along with warrior runes in general) are ridiculously overpriced.
Sidd2012-07-24 01:09:31
I definitely disagree.
I think if you're looking at elementals for bashing purposes, it's because you have credits to spare, and nothing more important to buy (crit rune, roa etc), where if you are looking at pvp options, they'll crop up much sooner.
I think this is definitely a difference of opinions.
I think if you're looking at elementals for bashing purposes, it's because you have credits to spare, and nothing more important to buy (crit rune, roa etc), where if you are looking at pvp options, they'll crop up much sooner.
I think this is definitely a difference of opinions.
Shamarah2012-07-24 01:10:05
Sidd:
Dealing more damage translates to more health sipping which means fewer health applications being applied, meaning more wounds.
if you're having to sip health against a warrior, even a warrior with elemental runes, you're doing something wrong
Unknown2012-07-25 19:30:27
I am a warrior, and I approve this message.
Unknown2012-07-27 08:49:57
Shamarah:
if you're having to sip health against a warrior, even a warrior with elemental runes, you're a merian/faeling.
Fixed. :)
Unknown2012-07-27 12:54:53
Draylor:
Shamarah:
if you're having to sip health against a warrior, even a warrior with elemental runes, you're a merian/faeling/mugwump.
Fixed. :)
Fixed some more.
Rivius2012-07-27 13:56:32
Trill too. I...can damage kill some trills with just one fire elemental rune and pyrotoxin.
