Unknown2012-07-29 17:07:25
Beast dismiss, beast summon (name) isn't good anymore? It's what I used before I got the whistle.
Sidd2012-07-29 19:23:45
The whistle time is half that of regular beast whistle.
Don't get me wrong, it's definitely nice to have, but it's more of a 'handy' artifact rather than a 'necessary' one
Don't get me wrong, it's definitely nice to have, but it's more of a 'handy' artifact rather than a 'necessary' one
Rivius2012-07-29 19:39:21
Oh, I thought it eliminated the cost. Seems like less of a "must-have" indeed.
In any case, custom beasts don't even need beast whistle do they? Those are quite a good investment too.
In any case, custom beasts don't even need beast whistle do they? Those are quite a good investment too.
Sylphas2012-07-29 23:07:19
Rivius:
Oh, I thought it eliminated the cost. Seems like less of a "must-have" indeed.
In any case, custom beasts don't even need beast whistle do they? Those are quite a good investment too.
If they're off plane, they do.
Xenthos2012-08-03 01:09:02
Cavalier is a specialization which is heavily focused on being able to press the opponent and pile on the wounding. It has the ability to do extra afflictions and some extra wounding (via Heft and the steedmounted bonus), but it gives up cure hindering (in the form of crushedwindpipe or slitthroat).
To some extent this is a decent tradeoff; however, Heft ends up being rather clumsy as an ability which reduces its efficacy. If you heft and shield / rebounding come up, you are most likely going to lose your heft when you raze. If you're hindered after you heft, you lose it (and thus the entire combat round that you would have had if you had actually attacked when you hefted, because now you have to cure the hindering as well before curing, and then re-heft once more).
The best thing to do with this would be as Daganev suggested; just make Heft a toggleable defense. If activated, when you do a swing or jab attack, it works as follows:
1) A line precedes the attack where it shows you firmly gripping the polearm and readying it for a stronger blow.
2) Followed by the attack itself (adding on the heft balance use to the overall time).
If you Sunder while Hefted, it uses the extra power as usual.
This should be fine because heft is ~1s as balance goes; thus, on jabs, you're getting a bit less benefit from it as far as wounding over time goes but it gives you decent burst. For swings, you will sometimes get just one limb, sometimes two; when you get one, you're attacking with a 1s penalty.
Thus, this provides you with reason to not have heft enabled at some times, and to have it enabled at others.
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Problem: Heft is awkward and clumsy to utilize, as described above.
Solution: Make it a toggleable defense, as described above.
Problem: Cavalier also suffers from reduced ability to hinder opponents. CrushLeg exists, but it requires critical wound levels, whereas Tendon for Pureblade requires only heavy.
For Bonecrushers, CrushLeg has the option to be given at heavy if there is already a broken bone, but for a dual-wielding spec with little in the way of cure hindering, landing a second blow while the leg is still broken is difficult (and with testing I was not even able to get this to fire while the limb was at heavy and broken; the AB does not say anything about it being possible for Cavaliers).
Solution: Consider making CrushLeg a heavy affliction. It is a Swing attack only, as is broken leg.
* Note that this would supersede / replace report 899; being able to hit both legs at once with it at this point would be Far Too Much.
Problem: Steed Pincharge is too effective at locking down a target. Once used, the Cavalier can keep attempting to leave the room; once it works, re-charge the target. This leaves them with almost no time to do anything, making this skill more effective than Crucify at lockdown.
Solution 1: Require beast balance before you can pincharge. This way if walls are raised, you can't charge in that direction and then pincharge back.
Solution 2: Some sort of a cooldown timer on pincharge to keep it from being used back-to-back (such as requiring and consuming beast balance).
Those are really the main things I'd like to see for the spec as modifications; Ushaara has some number of minor tweaks, which we could consider as further envoy reports if needed (or if there are any he really thinks need to be added to this they can be too). I personally would prefer to hit the biggest things allowing us to do minor tweaks in any direction afterwards as necessary.
To some extent this is a decent tradeoff; however, Heft ends up being rather clumsy as an ability which reduces its efficacy. If you heft and shield / rebounding come up, you are most likely going to lose your heft when you raze. If you're hindered after you heft, you lose it (and thus the entire combat round that you would have had if you had actually attacked when you hefted, because now you have to cure the hindering as well before curing, and then re-heft once more).
The best thing to do with this would be as Daganev suggested; just make Heft a toggleable defense. If activated, when you do a swing or jab attack, it works as follows:
1) A line precedes the attack where it shows you firmly gripping the polearm and readying it for a stronger blow.
2) Followed by the attack itself (adding on the heft balance use to the overall time).
If you Sunder while Hefted, it uses the extra power as usual.
This should be fine because heft is ~1s as balance goes; thus, on jabs, you're getting a bit less benefit from it as far as wounding over time goes but it gives you decent burst. For swings, you will sometimes get just one limb, sometimes two; when you get one, you're attacking with a 1s penalty.
Thus, this provides you with reason to not have heft enabled at some times, and to have it enabled at others.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Problem: Heft is awkward and clumsy to utilize, as described above.
Solution: Make it a toggleable defense, as described above.
Problem: Cavalier also suffers from reduced ability to hinder opponents. CrushLeg exists, but it requires critical wound levels, whereas Tendon for Pureblade requires only heavy.
For Bonecrushers, CrushLeg has the option to be given at heavy if there is already a broken bone, but for a dual-wielding spec with little in the way of cure hindering, landing a second blow while the leg is still broken is difficult (and with testing I was not even able to get this to fire while the limb was at heavy and broken; the AB does not say anything about it being possible for Cavaliers).
Solution: Consider making CrushLeg a heavy affliction. It is a Swing attack only, as is broken leg.
* Note that this would supersede / replace report 899; being able to hit both legs at once with it at this point would be Far Too Much.
Problem: Steed Pincharge is too effective at locking down a target. Once used, the Cavalier can keep attempting to leave the room; once it works, re-charge the target. This leaves them with almost no time to do anything, making this skill more effective than Crucify at lockdown.
Solution 1: Require beast balance before you can pincharge. This way if walls are raised, you can't charge in that direction and then pincharge back.
Solution 2: Some sort of a cooldown timer on pincharge to keep it from being used back-to-back (such as requiring and consuming beast balance).
Those are really the main things I'd like to see for the spec as modifications; Ushaara has some number of minor tweaks, which we could consider as further envoy reports if needed (or if there are any he really thinks need to be added to this they can be too). I personally would prefer to hit the biggest things allowing us to do minor tweaks in any direction afterwards as necessary.
Ushaara2012-08-04 19:05:21
Xenthos:
To some extent this is a decent tradeoff; however, Heft ends up being rather clumsy as an ability which reduces its efficacy. If you heft and shield / rebounding come up, you are most likely going to lose your heft when you raze. If you're hindered after you heft, you lose it (and thus the entire combat round that you would have had if you had actually attacked when you hefted, because now you have to cure the hindering as well before curing, and then re-heft once more)...
I'm not sure if I am convinced with this part. Yes, you will lose your heft if you raze, but that's your opportunity cost of not cleaving so you -don't- lose the heft. I realise that if you're hefting, you're more than likely looking to follow up with a swing and cleaving is a poor substitute, but for me at least, I'd prefer to take the cleave rather than lose the heft entirely, even with the extended balance. That said, if hefted razes are changed to do something more, I would totally support it.
The frustration when hindering causes its loss I think is just one of the breaks you have to take with the specialisation. I see it like losing out on a puissant hit due to being hindered.
If it did change to Daganev's suggestion, I think it would just be constantly up and at that point it may as well not be there at all. A 1s penalty for fast balance races isn't much when you'll be wounding two bodyparts ~50% of the time. With the free jabs (was it 10% chance?) from guard as well, I could see cavalier wounding being a bit too easy.
The main obstacle I see with the specialisation is that while it's very easy to be hindered, it's pretty lacking in direct hindering ability itself (which probably makes your hefts being hindered more common than it should be). The last report I put in was an effort to improve that somewhat, and I do think a bit more forced balance loss/stun will help, and give hefting a better bang for its buck.
With regards moving CrushLeg to heavy, it would make landing it easier certainly, but I think you'd still be faced with the difficulty of sticking the knockdown. Target can parry/stance legs after you get the affliction, and chances are you won't land the knockdown on the following swing.
Finally, to go with whatever else I've said above this post, there's very little reason for a Cavalier to actually jab once you've built up some wounding. Any ideas for a critical jab affliction?
Xenthos2012-08-04 19:28:48
If you cleave with heft, you're still falling behind due to heft taking more time than the +wounding gets you. Hefted jabs aren't really worth it in general.
You're also not going to be hitting 2 body parts "~50% of the time". Both hits check parry / stance / standard miss rate, above and beyond the "does it carry forward and try a second shot". The carry-through rate could possibly be lowered to 30% as well if you feel that's not enough. Being a bit slower with the hefted jabs also gives reason to not keep it on-- especially it it takes some balance time to toggle it (which it should anyways).
I'd really much rather have it work in that general manner though, making the ability less clumsy. Cavalier is designed around being able to press on the wounding, but with the method of pressing it working the way it does, it just doesn't really live up to its potential (and doesn't have the cure-hindering to fall back on).
A critical jab that gave burst-vessels would be pretty cool.
You're also not going to be hitting 2 body parts "~50% of the time". Both hits check parry / stance / standard miss rate, above and beyond the "does it carry forward and try a second shot". The carry-through rate could possibly be lowered to 30% as well if you feel that's not enough. Being a bit slower with the hefted jabs also gives reason to not keep it on-- especially it it takes some balance time to toggle it (which it should anyways).
I'd really much rather have it work in that general manner though, making the ability less clumsy. Cavalier is designed around being able to press on the wounding, but with the method of pressing it working the way it does, it just doesn't really live up to its potential (and doesn't have the cure-hindering to fall back on).
A critical jab that gave burst-vessels would be pretty cool.
Ushaara2012-08-04 19:44:47
Hefted cleaves are slow yes, but I still see them as better than the no wounding you get from a hefted raze, if you've bothered hefting in the first place. Agreed that the hefted jabs aren't really worth it though alright.
You're right about it being lower than 50%, but wounding two bodyparts at once even at a lower % is still a nice advantage, and landing severspine first (or even spit mantakaya) does help avoid the stance/parry. That was the route I used to try for the skewer.
You're right about it being lower than 50%, but wounding two bodyparts at once even at a lower % is still a nice advantage, and landing severspine first (or even spit mantakaya) does help avoid the stance/parry. That was the route I used to try for the skewer.
Xenthos2012-08-04 19:59:37
Ushaara:
Hefted cleaves are slow yes, but I still see them as better than the no wounding you get from a hefted raze, if you've bothered hefting in the first place. Agreed that the hefted jabs aren't really worth it though alright.
You're right about it being lower than 50%, but wounding two bodyparts at once even at a lower % is still a nice advantage, and landing severspine first (or even spit mantakaya) does help avoid the stance/parry. That was the route I used to try for the skewer.
It's a nice advantage. I consider that the tradeoff for not having cure hindering, though, as stated earlier. If you can't cure hindering, you need to do more up-front to make up for it. That's why I think it's fine, and if you're focusing on jabs (with a swing now and then) you won't want to use Heft. When you switch to swings, you might want to use heft depending on what you're going for-- but it's a decision based on the circumstance and the target, not an 'all the time' thing, which is where I would consider the ability balanced.
If you feel that's better at a 30% fire rate that then gets affected by stance & parry from there, that's a possibility too.
I am pretty convinced with needing to rework heft though, it's just a matter of getting the numbers right for balance.
Xenthos2012-08-04 20:25:04
But consider this:
50% fire rate for 2x hit chances.
Over the course of 20 attacks:
2 of them miss entirely. = 3s unhefted, 5s hefted.
Since you're doing swings, you don't have full control over where they're landing. Some are just going to be hitting into stance / parry. Let's say 4 of the remaining 18 get stopped cold. = 6s unhefted, 10s hefted.
7 hit one time. = 21s unhefted, 28s hefted.
7 hit one time and carry on. Let's say only two more of these hit into stance / parry (since you have even less control over where the carry-on goes).
2 more one-time hits. = 6s unhefted, 8s hefted.
Finally, 5 double hits. = 15s unhefted (no carry-on), 20s hefted.
Time spent:
Unhefted = 51s.
Hefted = 71s.
# hits:
Unhefted: 14
Hefted: 19
Hits per second:
Unhefted: 3.64
Hefted: 3.74
Honestly, looking at the numbers, you gain a little advantage from heft at 50%, but not enough of one to be overpowered considering that there is no cure hindering.
Note that mileage will vary based on the RNG (hitting parry / stance more or less, miss rate, carry through), but that's warrior combat for you. I really do think it'd be fine doing this change to Heft though.
50% fire rate for 2x hit chances.
Over the course of 20 attacks:
2 of them miss entirely. = 3s unhefted, 5s hefted.
Since you're doing swings, you don't have full control over where they're landing. Some are just going to be hitting into stance / parry. Let's say 4 of the remaining 18 get stopped cold. = 6s unhefted, 10s hefted.
7 hit one time. = 21s unhefted, 28s hefted.
7 hit one time and carry on. Let's say only two more of these hit into stance / parry (since you have even less control over where the carry-on goes).
2 more one-time hits. = 6s unhefted, 8s hefted.
Finally, 5 double hits. = 15s unhefted (no carry-on), 20s hefted.
Time spent:
Unhefted = 51s.
Hefted = 71s.
# hits:
Unhefted: 14
Hefted: 19
Hits per second:
Unhefted: 3.64
Hefted: 3.74
Honestly, looking at the numbers, you gain a little advantage from heft at 50%, but not enough of one to be overpowered considering that there is no cure hindering.
Note that mileage will vary based on the RNG (hitting parry / stance more or less, miss rate, carry through), but that's warrior combat for you. I really do think it'd be fine doing this change to Heft though.
Xenthos2012-08-04 20:32:32
Duplicate post, apparently.
Daganev2012-08-05 18:42:25
If you make heft 30% , I certainly would never use it. It's not worth the extra balance time.
Also, I don't think you mean hits per second, I think you mean seconds per hit. :)
Also, question here.. since you can only apply health once every 4 seconds, does a hit every 3.7 seconds or 3.6 seconds really make a difference? Something must be wrong here...
Also, I don't think you mean hits per second, I think you mean seconds per hit. :)
Also, question here.. since you can only apply health once every 4 seconds, does a hit every 3.7 seconds or 3.6 seconds really make a difference? Something must be wrong here...
Raeri2012-08-09 09:02:26
Xenthos:
It's a nice advantage. I consider that the tradeoff for not having cure hindering, though, as stated earlier. If you can't cure hindering, you need to do more up-front to make up for it. That's why I think it's fine, and if you're focusing on jabs (with a swing now and then) you won't want to use Heft. When you switch to swings, you might want to use heft depending on what you're going for-- but it's a decision based on the circumstance and the target, not an 'all the time' thing, which is where I would consider the ability balanced.
If you feel that's better at a 30% fire rate that then gets affected by stance & parry from there, that's a possibility too.
I am pretty convinced with needing to rework heft though, it's just a matter of getting the numbers right for balance.
Make a hefted swing/jab ignore (but not strip?) rebounding but not provide the normal extra benefit?
Daganev2012-08-09 20:32:21
Raeri:
Make a hefted swing/jab ignore (but not strip?) rebounding but not provide the normal extra benefit?
I don't think the affect of Heft has to change much. Just make it a toggleable defense and most of the issues go away.
Ushaara2012-08-30 18:40:37
Updated Cavalier CrushLeg line.
Swinging a solid platinum bardiche ornamented with spikes in an underhand arc, Ushaara strikes at
you. Your right leg is smashed with an awesome blow and pulverised into a bloody stump, sending you
sprawling.
Unknown2012-08-31 15:23:14
Could always not heft if you think their aura is going to come up.
Ardmore2012-09-01 15:06:18
Now that the special report has went through, can the bug (4524) with cavalier weapons now be fixed? It's been sitting around for over a month.
Iosai2012-09-01 16:29:40
This has now been fixed.
Ardmore2012-09-01 17:02:29
Thanks :) You're awesome.
