I have a point, and I think you missed it (and will continue to do so). The sequins comment was intended to point out that adding an embellishment (sequins) on something that is intended to be inherently simple and understated would go against that thing's intended nature, and a restriction on doing so is justified where it might otherwise not be. There isn't anything arbitrary about that.

They're not supposed to be simple and understated. They're supposed to appear simple to produce, and yet be beautiful, profound, and actually be very complex.

So put sequins on an action origami. Does this somehow go against its rp theme, too? No, it's completely arbitrary. It's a blanket restriction on all origami, regardless of which of the four types it is.

Not that I think anyone here is listening to anyone else, but for the record, simple/complex has a very important and key axis you're leaving out. They're supposed to take a very simple and highly limited set of techniques and elements, and then put them together using a very complex craftsmanship, to produce a result that appears very simple and harmonious. You can't go wrong by comparing this to the calligraphic arts of the same parts of the world, or to the rice-paper painting, or to the dance, etc. You have a very, very, very strictly limited set of elements and techniques you're allowed to use; and the end result is intended to appear like a very simple and very focused expression; but the actual creative process is complex and requires great skill, patience, and discipline. That's the whole point.

Throwing more elements and techniques into the toolbox makes a perfectly compelling and interesting and evocative artistic style, but it's a fundamentally different style; and Lusternia happens to have chosen for its origami the minimalistic, austere style instead of the other one. Given that almost every other artistic thing in Lusternia is ornate and rich to the point of being baroque, I think it's perfectly okay and quite a nice contrast to have this one single thing that goes the other way.

Given that there's no connection between actual origami in real life, and the ability to hold a dead mammoth and sing to you when you open it, I don't think it's a big strain on suspension of disbelief to say that something about the magic that makes origami work in Lusternia requires the "simple purity" of nothing-but-paper. Sure, you can put sequins on paper, and a witch can still wear metal armor, and pick up a sword and kill someone with it, especially one who used to be a warrior until yesterday. Disbelief left the building a long, long time ago.

Fair points, Lendren, though is it really too much to ask for a little continuity, rather than just suspension of disbelief? Currently, how complex or simple your folds and cuts are have nothing whatsoever to do with how the design is approved or rejected. (And admittedly it could be hard, though not impossible, for the Charites to define what is or is not acceptable in that manner). What actually has an effect on the designs you're able to actually pass, is restrictions by commodities being necessary to achieve the design, and the patterns that already exist.

Personally, my major problem with this is that there is nothing whatsoever to suggest this, until you invest in it, and attempt to actually design. There is very much suggested up front that you can do, that is actually not permissible under the current guidelines. Nowhere is it said, anywhere, that this is treated differently than any other design, in any other trade, until you invest in it, and attempt to actually design. Nowhere is it even suggested that you can't embellish them like anything else you're trying to be creative with, until you invest in it, and attempt to actually design.

Nowhere is it suggested that it's required to be a simplistic, basic thing for the magic to work. It seems a lot more like it's just a mechanics issue, which the admin either don't want to, or cannot change. That in itself is fine, but only if that were honestly stated. Instead, we get what seems to be a retroactive whitewash of the skills, much of which outright contradicts what you're led to believe when first investing in it.

Those objections apply to everything else in Lusternia. Every design in every tradeskill is precisely as effective at whatever it does as every other, regardless of whether it's made with the rarest ingredients or the most common, or described as being extremely easy or requiring incredible craftsmanship. And you never what a skill is until you pay for it (unless it happens to be on a wiki somewhere).

The big issue here seems to be that something in the text you cited and bolded in the AB files implies something to you that contradicts the actual design, but I can't see where you get that implication, and a lot of other people upthread also don't see it.

The effectiveness of the designs that actually go through are the same, sure. But my objection is that origami designs are far more restricted in what actually goes through, in comparison with everything else. You do not have even remotely the semblance of creativity that you do have with jewelry, cooking, tailoring, etc. Even other bookbinding designs, which are ostensibly made by the same people.

That there can be RP justification for the design rules as they currently exist is all well and good. (like what you came up with for your previous post, though that is not even remotely how designs are currently admitted. It would actually be cool if it was) However, the sections of the AB files I cited are specific instances of things the AB files say we are allowed to do, what you see and read as you are in the process of paying for it, and mentally preparing what you can design. That they do not mention the "color" embellishments (neither saying you can nor that you cannot use them) is what I imagine is somehow confusing people.

However, the AB sections I cited (from all four origami types, no less) are specific things it's stated we're allowed to do, either in patterns that do not and will not exist (according to the Charites) or in techniques we are now apparently not supposed to use (according to Eventru, though this was the first I've ever heard of what he's saying) It seems like both the Charites, and now Eventru, are just making a reverse justification to negate what the skills themselves, that many of us paid real money for, still to this day say you can do. You yourself, Lendren, contradict Eventru several posts later, saying we actually can cut and tear the origami. What is so hard to understand about this?

Neither of these things stated by both the Charites and Eventru are anything you even have the potential to know about, until your investment is already complete and you try to design. Because the AB files, which are what you have to go on before that point, say either the complete and specific opposite, or nothing at all about the restrictions currently in place.

HELP TRADEMASTER, detailing the guidelines of design submissions, does not even mention origami as being specially restricted, as it does mention Tattoos (which even still has freedoms that are restricted to origami). Everything in this thread, be it techniques to fold, or paint or gemstones or anything you feel like bedazzling them with, abide by the guidelines of HELP TRADEMASTERS, in designing something a craftsman could reasonably create. Nowhere are these restrictions mentioned until you have paid for the skill, potentially the clan and cartel to submit them, and actually try to submit them and get rejected.

To me, this is very misleading, bordering on outright theft, which is why it upsets me so much, even six months after I initially tried this for myself. And that I am so upset is why my posts are evidently not making as much sense as I think they are. But I don't know how to explain this any more clearly.

It sounds like everyone was arguing the legitimacy of there being restrictions at all, and the legitimacy of the restrictions that exist while you were arguing against the ethicality of having restrictions poorly documented.

Is that really such a big difference to you?

Er. Yes? The entire time it sounded like you were saying it was just absolutely silly to have restrictions on origami and so on, when it seems like you are actually more angry that the differences in restriction aren't noted down anywhere outside of the trademaster news.

The solution to the first problem is "So sad, too bad". The solution to the second problem is "Let's sit down and write down all the hard-and-fast restrictions and general notes so that everyone is on the same page."