Eventru:

The intention (and hope) would be to remove the perception of 'Not my guild, not my problem' regarding collegium students (which is commonly held in every org, or so I get the impression). Have you other suggestions regarding collegiums?

Join a guild (through an NPC or automatically) only after graduating from the collegium, lowering the time spent as a guild novice to compensate. To be honest I don't think that would be an improvement, and would be a pain for novices while also cutting down options (basically forcing them to do the collegium rather than being able to do Newton). But throwing the idea out there at least. I'm not sure there's really a mechanical fix for player perceptions though.

Eventru:

The intention (and hope) would be to remove the perception of 'Not my guild, not my problem' regarding collegium students (which is commonly held in every org, or so I get the impression). Have you other suggestions regarding collegiums?

The issue is that even though the ambassador is in charge it's still going to be the same "Well I can point you to a scroll but that's about it"

If the collegium was more an actual stage in a novices life than just a little obstacle to get past then it might have a greater impact. Professors don't seem to actually really do anything other than appear on CGWHO and chancellors only really edit the scrolls.

As an example, you could make like... two or three "ranks" in the collegium. Rank one is the rank where you have a timer on you and you're performing the quests, once that timer is over you're rank two which gives the collegiums a bit of time to maybe come up with some generic newbie tasks, the sort of thing that you only ever really need to learn once(getting basic curatives/armour together, maybe some leveling/learning requirements, etc). A few ranks lets you break it out a bit more is all.

This would encapsulate the "novice" experience into the collegium, these additional tasks would be things that pretty much everyone can help them out with but there's just no feasible way to push these from the guilds and into the collegium right now.

So the professors would get a command that lets them "collegium favour" the novices to raise their rank and perhaps "collegium graduate" to eject them from the collegium and into their guild. If there is only two ranks maybe a head npc for each collegium could graduate based on certain measurable things to ensure novices can escape on their own (100% adept perhaps in primary and secondary + level 21?)

I like the idea of only being able to join a guild AFTER you've completed your time in the Collegium.

Let folks punch or kick for a while, it won't hurt them (or add a stronger, but generic, hunting ability they can use after a few lessons in combat or something). Add a few more quests, so you have the ones that teach basic survival stuff (influencing, healing, planes), the ones that teach city/commune stuff (geography, history,powerquest) and then add one for each guild that they can do that gives some introductory information for each guild. Don't have the quests reduce the time individually, but, if the newbie completes ALL the quests, they're auto-graduated. When they graduate, have some sort of auto message tell them to speak to the guild quest giver about joining the guild they liked best and/or have an auto CT announcement go out that so and so has graduated and is now ready for a guild, so that any members of that guild with induction powers can try to nab them.

Noola:

I like the idea of only being able to join a guild AFTER you've completed your time in the Collegium.

Let folks punch or kick for a while, it won't hurt them (or add a stronger, but generic, hunting ability they can use after a few lessons in combat or something). Add a few more quests, so you have the ones that teach basic survival stuff (influencing, healing, planes), the ones that teach city/commune stuff (geography, history,powerquest) and then add one for each guild that they can do that gives some introductory information for each guild. Don't have the quests reduce the time individually, but, if the newbie completes ALL the quests, they're auto-graduated. When they graduate, have some sort of auto message tell them to speak to the guild quest giver about joining the guild they liked best and/or have an auto CT announcement go out that so and so has graduated and is now ready for a guild, so that any members of that guild with induction powers can try to nab them.

Having had to literally just punch and kick this would suck majorly and likely drive people away, those early levels of "I POINT AND YOU DIE" are a nice feeling of power. Maybe a cute org based mini-skill if you wanted them to not join their guild til post-collegium with some newbie focused utilities that pays for itself at some point?

Also, my immediate thought about the ct announcement is that the popular guilds are in a much better position because they'll have the people to nab the novices where the quiet guilds would need to wait someone who can induct.

I support merging the collegium duties with the office of the Ambassador.

Re: guild ranks: the only use that I can think of for them is for perms to certain areas/guild rooms/manses, other than that, there really is no good mechanical reason to advance unless the player himself/herself wants to, unless a reward/incentive system is in place within the guild. Part of the issue is that a lot of us are guilty at being unimaginative as to the possibilities that could be done with them.

That said, it would be nice if the lore of guilds were expanded(not really aiming for one giant expansion - I'm all for tiny additions that build up towards solidifying the identity of the guild). It would be much appreciated if the guild members could contribute for this. Most, if not all, of the Lusternian guilds usually have an OOC clan for planning guild-related things.

For the bashing woes: Give each org a bashing attack with a "flat damage" component. This attack would do more damage than, say, a Cosmicfire at Master, but far less than Cosmicfire at Transcendant.

This way every newbie can bash (and bash comparatively well) while they are finding their place.

Then, when they graduate from the collegium, they'd need a way to automatically join a guild. When they do they get their guild-specific novice pouch (weapon, for example).

This starts to make the whole thing more complex, but you'd really have to do something along these lines to make "not joining a guild right away" feasible.

Re: rewards/incentives
It's not always a matter of imagination and more that the majority of the cool stuff in game is in the hands of the admin. Players can offer restricted designs, manses, credits, and gold.
The first is nice but unless you're making it for them and it's early I'd expect they'd already have an outfit they like or may not care.
The last three impair your ability to expand the guildhall. You can pay gold to fill out a manse, use credits to fill it with artefacts, even reward notable players with their own unique rooms there. But ultimately it's ephemeral and that investment could have been funnelled into the guild.
Stuff that the admin can do is generally... unpublished I guess. GLHELPs or something might help with the creativity there, but by the same note they can be very expensive and so trying to create a series of incentives through it comes with the expectation of rl years of fundraising. There's also likely limitations on what your imagination can conceive and what is permissible.

thisismydisplayname:

I support merging the collegium duties with the office of the Ambassador.

Yes.

TL;DR - Turn the Collegium into the hands of the Ambassador (so, aides to the Ambassador = teachers, GAs are the "ruling council" with permission to edit CGHELPS and graduate people, and Ambassador = "CL" with full perms - whatever that entails). Graduation is opt-out when *you* are ready, not when your time is up, or forced by gaining GR2 or GR3, or forced by GAs or the Ambassador.

I want to revive Glomdoring's novice clan for this purpose. I had some probably unrealistic idea that I'd love to see with the whole collegium/novices/ambassador interaction:

As it is, newbies (by which I mean, people needing help -- not just COLs and NOVs, but true newbie-newbie GR1s too) progress through the Collegium too quickly, and soon find themselves solely in the hands of their guild. This is a big problem. Here's why...

The Collegium provides a safe and interactive place for all org novices to ask questions and find their feet. Most novices feel comfortable asking for help over CGT, because it's encouraged. CGT usually has more 'helpers' than their own guild has. More people to ask == more and relevant answers == more interaction == woo, people are talking with me! Right? It has members from all the guilds in the org, and it is usually in the Collegium that newbie-newbies find their first friends/companions from outside their guilds, as cross-guild interaction is typically low until the novice is finished with their guild induction (every guild does their own thing, so I won't spell that out). The trouble is, novices aren't in the Collegium long enough! They are eager to ask questions until they graduate and are 'kicked out' of the Collegium, and I imagine they feel they have lost the 'right' or 'privilege' to ask questions over CGT. If you've graduated, then you should know everything you need to know!

Cue my imagined solution. As Ambassador, I'd like to have the opportunity to meet, talk with and help the novices of the commune. And I'd love to have a bunch of aides who feel the same way. And oh, I have this clan that I could repurpose into a secondary collegium (complete with secondary CGT and CGHELP in the form of clan chat and helps!) with the benefit of it being opt-out when *you* are ready, not when your time is up. It wouldn't be just for novices, too. As Glomdoring's Ambassador handles from-other-org inductees as well, the clan would serve as a 'welcome to the forest, we're here to help you get settled' clan.

I'd love to use this secondary collegium clan to help people become oriented with commune-specific, you-really-need-to-know-this-as-a-new-member information. It could be used to organise tours to important org areas (the planar tour was too rushed, you say? have no idea where you are, I hear?), introduce novices to org quests, promote novice hunting trips, stage visits, new-members-only events. The best thing: discounts at org shops due to your membership in the clan (an issue we've struggled with over the years, as offering discounts for collegium students is pointless, as by the time they need to buy things, they've graduated. Offering a novice-only shop open to everyone sees it abused by those who are decidedly *not* novices). I don't know. It's late. I'll stop.

The only problem with implementing this idea is being able to capture *every* new person. In my beautiful vision, the clan auto-inducted everyone fresh out of the Portal, or newly welcomed into the commune by an NPC or player. In reality, I can't induct every novice. I'm just not here often enough for it.

But if what Estarra and Eventru are saying, if it were possible to add in a secondary CT, perhaps it would also be possible to add in a secondary CGT (or use the existing CGT), have it be all-inclusive, with people opting to leave of their own volition, having GR2 or GR3 auto-strip membership (as this signifies that they have started to move away from dependency on the clan, and are progressing competently in their guild), or the Ambassador having an emergency "this person needs to graduate" button (I call it the pushing-the-chick-out-of-the-nest trick).

I want to see our numbers grow. I feel this lies largely with the way we interact with each other -- particularly in the first few hours/days of play.

Does anyone else see this being a solution?

( As an aside +1 to GNT being heard by COLs )

( As an aside +1 to GNT being heard by COLs )

Yes, please.

I like the no guild until out of collegium. Maybe the solution for hunting is to have a mini version of each guild's hunting style so new players can see it and decide what approach they prefer. It could also be paired with an explanation of each guild's strategy in hunting and pvp.

Svorai:


Does anyone else see this being a solution?

I'm more of the mindset that gr1 should really mean that you're not a novice any more and so if we need newbies to spend more time in the collegium environment then it should be expanded before the newbie enters a guild rather than the reach of the collegiums extending into the guild beyond perhaps guild novicehood.

The no guild until out of collegium idea is seeming more and more like a good idea to me too. It immediately shifts the focus from a guild being a novice's central org, to the city/commune being the central org. Those who then choose to join a specific guild after some exposure to them all are likely more inclined to stay than the straight-from-Portal novice who finds that the guild wasn't what they were expecting.

I like a lot of Svorai's post too, opt-out graduation etc. Something like saying I AM READY TO GRADUATE in front of the head collegium npc, and having all the other collegium npcs come in for a mini-graduation ceremony and say a line about successfully completing their task could be cool, and provide some positive reinforcement for the novice.

You can already wait to join a guild until after the collegium if you want. Forcing it would take away choice. I didn't join a guild or org out of the portal, I went to Newton first, happily punched a few gnomes and finks and then used PORTALS to see a few places. I picked a guild and then went back to Newton with awesome powers.

Definitely would want to go to Newton before the collegiums. It's a beautiful enclosed environment where you can explore at your own pace. The quests are brilliant. After you've outgrown Newton there's time for the collegiums to teach you a few more basics in a more open environment, and teach you a bit more about the city layout and history.

• a faction of artists in Hallifax with a particular opinion about art and how things should be centred around art in its many forms
  
• a faction of bureaucrats and politicians in Hallifax with a particular opinion about how things should be ordered in direction

So the caste system, but real and functional ._.

One of the two Avalon MUDs---which I believe Achaea descended from or was based on---put in a system where novices get either access to the full class or a pre-class, I forget which. I think it would be more confusing than it's worth to pursue the current collegium idea, but instead of just a city-based bashing skill you could just have "pre-classes." You could switch between any of the classes anytime while you are in their version of the college system.

It might help towards understanding what I mean if you've ever played Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones where there are rookie classes that promote into the regular classes. Unlike the other IRE MUDs, it would be a lot easier to do in Lusternia, because of the standardization that the archetypes bring. Naturally, the problem with this would be how skills connect and whether or not extending the college system would help or confuse novices more.

For retention's sake, it might actually help Lusternia if novices were ready to hunt, influence and all that right out of the portal, rather than trying to find out how to get to their tutor and spending a lot of time learning. The Admin could just give them pre-knowledge upon acquiring a class up to the 0% Master rank. That's about 45 credits, but that's an insignificant amount towards approaching Lusternia anyway. This way they immediately get to the better parts of the game, instead of getting a taste of the downtime learning upfront.

EDIT: You know what, I forgot about the specialization thing and someone raised a good point in the other thread, which invalidates pretty much this entire post: "You aren't a Druid until you learn Druidry; until then you are just a Nature user."

I think it's important that novices have access to their guild in the first few hours/days of play - it gives them a sense of belonging, and gives their style of play flavour, not to mention skills necessary for hunting and such. But with the opt-out graduation idea (I like Ushaara's idea of going to a Collegium NPC and having a mini-ceremony), it would allow people to really try out their skills and make an informed decision about whether they really want to be a wiccan (while still being novice restricted with skills - they can't specialise), and if they do like the guild and feel prepped to leave the comfort of the Collegium, *then* they say goodbye to it. If they feel they made the wrong choice with their guild, then then they have the option to still be in that commune/city-wide hub/safe place while they gain entry into another guild.

The Collegium experience is too hollow right now. It has the problem of teachers (being guild-appointed) having the mindset (as Eventru mentioned) "that novice is not in my guild therefore they're not my problem", whereas if they are Ambassador-appointed, there would be more of a collective "we're here to help everyone" mindset (to be honest, it always seemed strange to me that "teachers" were a general guild position, and no guild has a custom name for them - they don't seem to fit into the whole 'guild positions' heirarchy).

The Collegium experience is too rushed. There is too much information true newbies need, and they should feel like they are welcome and part of a group that is willing to help them work things out. Leave when they are ready. Everything should be at their pace, so they feel they have a sense of control over the experience.

Collegiums could be so much more than "go to this CGHELP, and when you're done, goodbye." It could be an Ambassador-run community, a real Collegium, where events are held, interaction is encouraged, discounts are offered to members... to really enrich and support newbies' first experiences of Lusternia.

See, I don't really think it's so important that a newbie have access to their guild straight away. Especially if, as the Admin seem to want, folks are supposed to view the city/commune as the key org with the guilds as more like clubs within it. Having everyone be a collegium student, learning about the world, about the city/commune and then, about each guild before makinga choice about which guild suits them best, that would make more sense to me.

Though I do agree that Ambassadors/aides should make it into a fun experience and like the ideas of events and discounts and so on.

TL;DR - Turn the Collegium into the hands of the Ambassador (so, aides to the Ambassador = teachers, GAs are the "ruling council" with permission to edit CGHELPS and graduate people, and Ambassador = "CL" with full perms - whatever that entails). Graduation is opt-out when *you* are ready, not when your time is up, or forced by gaining GR2 or GR3, or forced by GAs or the Ambassador.

This is something that we discussed on the Envoys channel the other day and I was going to post here about it. As you can see, I don't use the forums often, and therefore am quite poor at posting. I'm glad someone else put up the idea.

But basically, yes. The concept was to divorce novicehood from guilds and make it more of an org-wide thing, where they learn about the basic functions of the game and organizational lore at the same time, much as the collegium starts them on now. It would remove a little power from individual guilds, but at the same time would enforce that the city/commune put more focus onto the novices at a higher and more personal level, thereby hopefully increasing retention.

Svorai:

I think it's important that novices have access to their guild in the first few hours/days of play - it gives them a sense of belonging, and gives their style of play flavour, not to mention skills necessary for hunting and such. But with the opt-out graduation idea (I like Ushaara's idea of going to a Collegium NPC and having a mini-ceremony), it would allow people to really try out their skills and make an informed decision about whether they really want to be a wiccan (while still being novice restricted with skills - they can't specialise), and if they do like the guild and feel prepped to leave the comfort of the Collegium, *then* they say goodbye to it. If they feel they made the wrong choice with their guild, then then they have the option to still be in that commune/city-wide hub/safe place while they gain entry into another guild.

This is what novicehood is for, it is why there are reduced penalties for switching class while you are still a "freshman". Pushing this to gr2-3 is pushing the collegium beyond the novice stage.

The Collegium experience is too hollow right now. It has the problem of teachers (being guild-appointed) having the mindset (as Eventru mentioned) "that novice is not in my guild therefore they're not my problem", whereas if they are Ambassador-appointed, there would be more of a collective "we're here to help everyone" mindset (to be honest, it always seemed strange to me that "teachers" were a general guild position, and no guild has a custom name for them - they don't seem to fit into the whole 'guild positions' heirarchy).

I do have to say that I haven't actually experienced the issues with "not my novice", pretty much every time I've ever been on an alt and asked for help with the quests I've had it readily offered and the only time that there are issues are when it's the actual introduction because people from other guilds literally cannot teach you, all they can really do is point you to a help file.

The Glade at the least has titles, "Greywalker" instead of Chancellor and "Sentinel" instead of teacher. These are unique on the commune level rather than the guild level, I assume that other orgs could request this.

The Collegium experience is too rushed. There is too much information true newbies need, and they should feel like they are welcome and part of a group that is willing to help them work things out. Leave when they are ready. Everything should be at their pace, so they feel they have a sense of control over the experience.

Without any changes to the mechanics of the collegiums as they are now, I don't see this issue being addressed. After one a scroll and some quests the novice is dumped into the guild, they might still have the channel but they're at a point where the things they are doing could be entirely related to the guild and so could be inappropriate on ct or cgt. I wouldn't want to be putting these off because the collegium time has entered the post-novice stage.

Collegiums could be so much more than "go to this CGHELP, and when you're done, goodbye." It could be an Ambassador-run community, a real Collegium, where events are held, interaction is encouraged, discounts are offered to members... to really enrich and support newbies' first experiences of Lusternia.

Events can actually be run, and I vaguely remember ambassadors or culture ministers doing this even before collegiums specifically for novices. If you just want to encourage interaction you could talk to them or the GAs could potentially talk to each other more about what the teachers should be doing.

I think that collegiums need to actually be teaching novices more, prepare them more for playing this game. The changes you propose do not appear to address this.

One of the main problems with Lusternia is the lack of representation of entire guilds/organisations in-game at various time-points.

If you browse http://www.mudstats....World/Lusternia and assume the data presented is accurate within a reasonable margin of error, we are averaging 57 players a day.

If we assume for the sake of discrete calculations that there is a uniform distribution over six different organisations with a server average of 60 players (rounded up for the sake of integers)--we end up with 10 players in each organisation.

If we also assume that there are five possible guilds (we will ignore that monks/bards are not released for two), you get two players in each guild. This is obviously a theoretical calculation under the demands of a model where the population is evenly distributed throughout each organisation and guild.

In reality, there are entire guilds that lack an online presence, and in some cases, entire organisations. At times even at a peak range of say 80 players online, there are 10 ur'guard members online. That puts it at 70 players to be distributed through the other 27 guilds, which is roughly just two or three players per guild--another theoretical distribution model with zero degrees of freedom.

One of the problems in a game that prides itself on an immersing environment is Lusternia has too many options. This creates a dynamic that causes populations to clump into only certain guilds or organisations, which significantly downregulates the number of players in other guilds/orgs.