Yes, Hoaracle's view of the Taint is why I was basically tossed after about a week. The RP (and longevity) of the Divine definitely impacts the RP of the orgs They patron, for better or worse.

Zvoltz:


I don't think this is entirely true. The Divine have opinions on everything, just like the players do. Mysrai was one of the three Elder Gods who sentenced the Traitors to exile in the Void, so I'm not at all surprised that she hates the Taint. This goes both ways as well, such as Hoaracle's similar outlook on the Taint even though Serenwilde and Magnagora were allies at one point.

Yeah, I think Zvoltz has the right of it - Eventru certainly is vocal on his opinions of the Wyrd, merely accepting of the reality of the political situation. I think Terenria tends towards the same - most gods do. Certainly, our opinions are very cemented, while player alliances tend towards the fluid.

Your Divine RP in Celest doesn't appear to be affecting any of those in the orders, as if your views really just don't matter. Doesn't that bother anyone else?

Weren't you just complaining about not lasting in an order because you couldn't mesh your views with the Divine's?

Which way do you want it? :|

Though a bit more seriously: It depends on the Divine and how willing they are to accept (not necessarily agree with, but accept) the desires of their followers as well. It is a bit of a two-way street.

Note that not every Order is designed or intended to be a carbon copy of the Divine in question. Take Shikari as an example. Shikari is a loner. The Order is designed with a Pack structure (together we are stronger). While this is not Shikari's nature at all, it turns out to be quite fitting as an Order goes, and there is some definite IC "struggle" as Shikari finds ways around his nature to build up that concept.

Exactly, but you think I'm saying two different things, and I'm really not. Celest has all the cake, and they're free to eat it.

Eventru's followers are welcome to engage with Glomdoring on a social and political level - it's a matter of survival. They're also very well aware that they aren't their friends, they're weapons, a means to an end. They defend Glomdoring when they need to because you don't let a good blade go dull.

They don't mingle romantically, and recognize that like any dog, if it gets out of control, you do what needs doing.

Gaudiguch on the other hand wants to get in your pants.

Zvoltz:

I don't think this is entirely true. The Divine have opinions on everything, just like the players do. Mysrai was one of the three Elder Gods who sentenced the Traitors to exile in the Void, so I'm not at all surprised that she hates the Taint. This goes both ways as well, such as Hoaracle's similar outlook on the Taint even though Serenwilde and Magnagora were allies at one point.

I'm not really an expert on lore, so I could be wrong about my viewpoint, but I never really associated taint with the divine pantheon of Magnagora. Certainly, using its power fits with the tenants of Magnagoran deities, but it isn't like they created it. Also, while I certainly believe that it is Mysrai RP to dislike the Traitors, this isn't reflected in tasks for the order at all. There's no reward given for clearing Fain/Morgfyre/Raezon's godrealms, no ongoing holywar. Just the taint, for some reason.

As for Celest, well I'm not really surprised that as a City they do what they want. Their RP has always seemed to me to be a bit entitled, which is cool if that's what they want to do. However, a divine order basically choosing to ignore what is clearly a strong viewpoint of their deity seems a bit off to me. Celest doesn't need Glomdoring in order to survive, it is merely convenient. I can understand compromising something like that if it really was a neccessity, but just for convenience I'd personally consider that lacking integrity.

One has to wonder why Mysrai and Hoaracle are so opposed to the traitors as opposed to any other divine. I'd think they would have been chosen for their impartiality. If and when Jadice shows up, I hope She's a little more interested in "who cares, so long as it doesn't interfere with my organisation" as opposed to "Get rid of the traitors".

On the other hand, I do enjoy the fact that Hoaracle and Mysrai sort of have a bond/informal alliance in that they tell their followers not to raid the other's realm.

InsertRandomNameHere:

One has to wonder why Mysrai and Hoaracle are so opposed to the traitors as opposed to any other divine. I'd think they would have been chosen for their impartiality. If and when Jadice shows up, I hope She's a little more interested in "who cares, so long as it doesn't interfere with my organisation" as opposed to "Get rid of the traitors".

On the other hand, I do enjoy the fact that Hoaracle and Mysrai sort of have a bond/informal alliance in that they tell their followers not to raid the other's realm.

Those three are probably more aware of what the Traitors did than any other Elder God. They were so abhorred by what they did, they felt that the most horrid and unthinkable punishment the Elder Gods could mete out was the very least they should do. Indeed, out of all the gods, they are like as not the ones most likely to be rabidly anti-Traitor (if they're 'rabidly' anything).

It's important to remember, also, you're talking about a circle of Elder Gods who are intricately aware of the nature of the soul, at least, moreso than most gods. They spent countless aeons meditating on it, meditating on the interconnectivity of the First World, the nature of the spirit, energy. Now, we're talking about a group of people who defiled that at its base, destroying what they probably view as the most precious gift Estarra could give them. Likewise, I wouldn't be surprised if they extended that to their opinion of the Taint - it's not like the Taint is a fashion choice, it's a deep-seated, corruptive influence that defiles the soul. It is the mortal equivalent of Fain's Super Soulless Juice, in many aspects. It creates the same desires, corruption and awful influence that they saw driving the Traitors.

Of course, that's merely my suspicion - I don't want to be putting words into other people's mouths. So they can speak for themselves if they wish (though I think that's something to explore ICly - particularly for Shikha!).

As to Celest, I really don't care to be defending their actions - particularly in a thread like this. Nonetheless, I will say this about their overall storyline, as a nation - they've been the best, and torn apart by ambition. They've rebuilt, they've survived the ups and downs, and since players have started to populate it, it's had more ups and downs. Nonetheless, I'm - generally speaking - pretty happy with Celest. They understand what Glomdoring is, there's rarely any doubt or dissension on the fact it's a corrupt and foul place. They know that it will ultimately be something they need to face. They are survivors, and understand there are lines they shouldn't cross or ground they simply cannot give, for the sake of moral high ground.

As to the general atmosphere of Eventru's order, I'll simply say I'm pretty pleased. While there may be one or two people who need a nudge to be reminded of what's in line with 'the teachings' and what isn't, largely they understand what needs to be done. Indeed, I occasionally need to remind Celest at large of the same - but once they see something's fallen outside the line of acceptability, they remember who they are and jump on it pretty quickly.

Overall, Celest as an organization has grown in a very healthy way, I think. A solid force of combatants, a solid force of RPers and designers, and the occasional public buffoon who stresses everyone out. Always room for improvement? Sure. It is nice, though, to be able to sit back and not need to remind them the vast majority of the time about how certain things conflict with the Light - far more often than not, Celest does zealous devotion all on its own.

It may be stressful sometimes, but they do quite well by themselves. I've actually been fairly amused lately, because of the political ongoings with Glomdoring. I don't think they give so much ground as you seem to think, Shikha. I'm sure Celina is twisting all up inside, just wishing she could say something now! (*mustache twirl*)

You make some very good points! I hadn't considered the similarity between the taint and Fain's elixer of evil. I'd always considered the taint more of a physical affliction than a spiritual one, but I suppose that's more because I always wanted to believe in the idea of Magnagorans being good guys who had no choice but to be who they are. In truth I guess that's not really the case.

You win this time, Mr. Tru :P

Shikha:

You make some very good points! I hadn't considered the similarity between the taint and Fain's elixer of evil. I'd always considered the taint more of a physical affliction than a spiritual one, but I suppose that's more because I always wanted to believe in the idea of Magnagorans being good guys who had no choice but to be who they are. In truth I guess that's not really the case.

You win this time, Mr. Tru :P

One can very easily argue those points if they want to. One could even argue it about the Traitors. I can't even disagree that the Traitors didn't buy valuable time during the Elder Wars - I can't prove or disprove it, anyways.

Certainly, one could make the argument that being tainted isn't something one chooses - you're born into it, or it is done to you. It's not necessarily a conscious choice.

Of course, we play a game, so we know it is - but to your character, it might not be. Certainly, one could make the argument Magnagora are on the moral highground. They just want to survive. I don't know about "good" in the sense of "Good", but that doesn't mean they're inherently "Evil" either. See: Orlachmar. It predisposes them to it, but does that mean they must be evil? I don't know. It reminds me of that episode of Charmed with the Firestarter (I think that's what they're called) - a child who came into his powers as a Firestarter, they are most often found as bodyguards for the Source. The Sisters debate what to do - if the child is destined for evil (but isn't yet), can (or should!) they vanquish it? Etc etc.

It's all a question of morals and ethics, I suppose.

My only point is - you can't blame Mysrai for being anti-Soulless (or any Elder God, honestly). Indeed, Magnagora is cast into a poor hole - they are, effectively, the spawn of the Elders' worst enemy. Of course, the same can be said for any org (Glomdoring is decidedly not 'natural' - though this is another argument, "What is natural? Elder Gods made the Wyrd, Elder Gods made the animals and painted the plants, etc etc", at its base there's something 'not normal' and off-putting about it. Celest is very zealous and ultimately very imperialistic - after all, they ruled for hundreds of years in a very powerful Empire that spanned the entirety of the Basin that, barring a couple of incidents, had an amazing run. Hallifax is questionably racist and certainly have values that can be seen as anathema to most organizations, Serenwilde is very anti-civilization and anti-Wyrd, pitting them against anyone. Gaudiguch is very wild, sinful, crazy, and strange - and have an illithoid ambassador hanging around, so everyone doubtlessly will look sideways at them).

Ultimately, every organization has 'road blocks' between them and other organizations. It's a question of how 'important' those road blocks are - any roadblock the Taint causes it arguably exists for every other org in some fashion or another (the Wyrd, being a city, being an organization that ultimately wants to see you worship their half-formed, etc etc etc). If one looks past the Taint, you may (or may not) find other reasons not to ally with Magnagora.

There may come a day when Gaudiguch and Magnagora are in the same alliance - they may never be on the terms Gaudiguch and, say, Celest are, but they'll work together and fight together and win together.

Sounds like a lot of RP excuses to justify imbalances, but we're all biased in our own ways. However, the pantheon seems too skewed towards certain sides of the alliances, and that doesn't feel like a coincidence to many of us.

Zarquan:

Sounds like a lot of RP excuses to justify imbalances, but we're all biased in our own ways. However, the pantheon seems too skewed towards certain sides of the alliances, and that doesn't feel like a coincidence to many of us.

You're right, damn. He's caught us, Hoaracle/Lisaera/Charune/Mysrai/Zvoltz/Terentia/Lyreth/Isune/etcetcetc.

We're all plotting against Serenwilde and fabricating RP to justify it.

Really? Frankly, I think my argument was essentially that the RP that is in the way is generally easily overcome, but rather the real obstacles are what are beyond that.

Zarquan:

Sounds like a lot of RP excuses to justify imbalances, but we're all biased in our own ways. However, the pantheon seems too skewed towards certain sides of the alliances, and that doesn't feel like a coincidence to many of us.

Feel free to supply examples of this bias, because I haven't noticed any on either of my characters...

I was in Hoaracle's order for a relatively short time. I was "promoted" in the order several times. None of those positions had any privileges, and it seemed that it's completely intentional (RP over mechanics?).

I defended Nil one time, probably for less than 15 minutes, and I got a lecture from the orderhead that was basically an ultimatum to stop helping the Taint or quit. One time.

Now, count how many active avatars are in each org, especially combatants.

There are other variables, but these are my own biggest issues.

InsertRandomNameHere:

One has to wonder why Mysrai and Hoaracle are so opposed to the traitors as opposed to any other divine. I'd think they would have been chosen for their impartiality. If and when Jadice shows up, I hope She's a little more interested in "who cares, so long as it doesn't interfere with my organisation" as opposed to "Get rid of the traitors".

On the other hand, I do enjoy the fact that Hoaracle and Mysrai sort of have a bond/informal alliance in that they tell their followers not to raid the other's realm.

Mysrai is not impartial, and has never claimed to be impartial. Projecting RL morals/ethics on fictional and non-mortal characters is probably a mistake.

Zarquan:

Sounds like a lot of RP excuses to justify imbalances, but we're all biased in our own ways. However, the pantheon seems too skewed towards certain sides of the alliances, and that doesn't feel like a coincidence to many of us.

I don't think there's any skewing towards any side, if you consider the whole time that Lusternia has been open. There was Celenwilde, and then Celenwilde + Mag (when Eventru even defended Serenwilde from Glomdoring raids, and kept starting events that exclusively kept Glomdoring out). It really depends on your own org's pantheon, and I bet it doesn't help when certain people scare admin involvement away.

certain people

I see how it is :(

As upset as I may have been over that incident, I do have to give Hoaracle credit for at least holding his followers to that higher standard (though, I'll be surprised if it's still like that now). Other orders turning the proverbial blind eye for the good of an alliance is slightly more annoying.