I just want for alchemists to be able to gather some items for themselves instead of using herbs. I really do not want to get into the whole policing harvesting and such things debates. My trade is alchemy, I want to buy raw materials at reasonable prices and in the amounts I need. Most of the herbs I can get, but there are a few types that due to the rarity I cannot, at least not in the numbers I need. Unfortunately this means that a very large percentage of my trans alchemy is still unusable, or very rarely. My solution from an IC perspective would be to experiement with other items and discover is substitutions can be made. An alchemist might be able to TAP a maple tree for syrup, perhaps with a random chance of the syrup crystalizing into sugar. The syrup could replace horehound as an ingredient in potions. Maybe an alchemist could find windblown tree boughs, light a campfire and GATHER the ash, use it as a substitute for calamus. How about digging in a swamp area to find a certain kind of clay.

The problems I see for alchemists with the herbs are that the demand for certain kinds far exceeds the availability. If the availbility is increased that may be great for the world in general, but doesn't guarantee alchemists will see more of them at reasonable prices. Because if general public demand is still there, which it will always be because the herbs are edible cures, then prices will remain up around the level of what others are willing to pay for them.

I am sorry, I actually thought I had addressed your points. If you have a set price, and a way to oversee that prices are really followed... then you wouldn't have people buying someone out and selling elsewhere for more. Even if you did buy someone out, you would have a greater amount of people selling herbs to everyone at average prices. An organization would be able to study any anomaly within their procedures, and actually try to enforce it or change it. Meaning that if someone buys out someone out of herbs, but actually goes to sell to someone else for more. Then, the organization would have more eyes seeing things into matter. Because regulations would be made public, the public would be able to help the organization keep track of the regulations that abide those people within the herbal/alchemy trade. This would mean an organization would not only be able to regulate the trade, but those members within the trade. So this wouldn't benefit overharvesters because they would have no market to exploit, being constantly contested by an organization that places prices more sought by the public, and have the enough order and power to keep the trade on prospering.

Please, don't try to make this organization to be nazi, or anything sectorial and elitist... Especially because I have stressed countless of times how everyone can harvest, meaning that whomever you are, you can harvest be part of the organization be represented on how the organization is to act, and your market would be ensured to be global. There would be no herb bans on a group, no exclusive control of herbs by a group be cause the ability to harvest IS NOT exclusive to a specific group. Normally, with something like the nazi or any secret society, you work to favor those members within the group, and only those people, without caring who those outside of it are. Such is the opposite on a global organization that can be shaped by anyone who joins it, and can even have a Divine as a medium for any intense negotiations. Just wanted to add this, that also works to serve the general public. Nothing of a NOVUS ORDUM SECLORUM, or anything, just a global organization trying to ensure the stability of their trade altogether.

My apologies, I didn't mean to hijack your thread Tsigany. I did have the best intentions to start with though!

I really like some of the earlier ideas suggested. Have you thought about diluting ingredients, as well? Maybe a highly skilled Alchemist could increase the usefulness of their herbs by mixing them in just the right amount of water, so that although you're still using herbs, you might be able to get 5 times as many potions out of the same amount. All that requires is an extra ability.

Now that is a good idea for Alchemists, a way to increase how many elixirs they can make from a single batch of herbs. And this would be even better if the amount of herbs needed to make elixirs was reduced, as it had been suggested. But I really don't think you can give alchemists the privilege of picking their own herbs, because they you lower the commercial power of herbalists. Seeing how herbs/elixirs isn't in the same skillset as in other places, you do need a way to balance both trades without making one more privileged over the other (Just imagine of herbalists could create at the very least health elixirs and mending, so applies to the alchemists, if they don't require of the herbalists trade...). So, if Alchemists/Herbalists gathered under the same banner, both having their trades regulated as the majority within their group consider to be fit would be immensly useful, it would be like having elixirs/herbs gathered, but instead of a single skill it would be gathered under an organized group. More people would be able to gather herbs, set a general price to sell, maybe sell at a different price to alchemists so they can make their potions.




Normally in commerce, things are served at whoever comes first and has the income to purchase the wares gets them. Now, there are many herbs that are edible/smokeable/applicable because they have curative properties on them by their own (even when some of them serve to heal very little problems), there are others that only an alchemist can use. If you have more demand that can be supplied, due to a limited market where few posses the wares and sell bulk at whatever price they want, you will always have the problem of not being able to satisfy such demands. So yes, on a small market, almost a monopoly, herbs will go at any price the customer is willing to pay but this doesn't prevent the seller to set a high price to begin with (100gp for Reishi). This could be prevented if you regulate the trade, because at the very least you would have a greater amount of sellers with available herbs each selling their wares at prices lower than their competition. Another benefit of gathering alchemists/herbalists under a same roof is that herbalist would be able to negotiate directly with alchemists. Meaning that alchemist might get quickly what herbs they need for a herbalist. Also, let us not forget that if an organization goes well enough, they can always acquire a shop. A shop that has ensured stock of herbs/elixirs, as well people being able to supply other shops everywhere.

I've never suggested we should be able to pick our own herbs. I'm talking about replacing certain herbs with another ingredient that alchemists can gather, and that would be of little to no use to anyone else. i'm wondering if people have read my posts or just glanced them over and are getting into a freak about possible competition? Why would we want to be scrapping it out with the herbalists for plants that are already in short supply. I'v suggested that Alchemists get the ability to GATHER a few non herb ingredients that will replace those herbs that are hard for us to get. Alchemists will be able to make potions at more realistic prices and in greater quantities. Herbalists will still be able to sell as many herbs as they can harvest since there is still a huge market for them.

NOTE: I'm only saying -some- of the herbs could be replaced Alchemists should still purchase most of their stuff from herbalists

Within this paragraph is why I started thinking that you were suggesting that alchemists should be able to harvest those herbs they need for elixirs, probably especially those herbs that only alchemists can use. Now, if your idea is to basically find substitutions for herbs... it would be the same thing as if you were able to harvest them. Because you wouldn't need anymore of the herbalist to sell you the herbs. Consider the other way around, what if herbalist in fact became less reliant on elixirs? Just imagine a herbalist going onto a greenhouse experimenting with their gathered herbs and greating amalgams of reishi/arnica capable of regenerating cutted limbs, broken legs, etc... We wouldn't be needing alchemist. Even if we needed a health vial from an alchemist in order to experiment with the herbs to create the amalgams... this small dependancy is so minuscule that we could still benefit ourselves onto later on sell our amalgams as in substitue for elixirs, and find a cheap way to make cures or at least make more cures. Both trades depend on each other, why not simply gather both trades and settle an agreement? We would benefit altogether. Also, making the amount of herbs needed for elixirs lower is good, perhaps having an ability to make more elixir from a single batch of herbs is good, making Bob's wares worst that normal alchemists can make is good. But, if we organized to commerce with herbs, regulate herbs to ensure that more and more people are able to sell to alchemist and the public alike... why not get organized? It is a very good solution.

EDIT: Just want to clear something. Even if alchemist were able to recollect a very limited amount of things for their elixirs, in substition for few herbs... You must be aware that some herbs are ONLY and ONLY of use to alchemists, herbs like these have no alternative market with them.

I would like them to, before even considering this, consider that it takes 2 % reserves of power to make one measely health potion. 5% reserves will fill 10 power for me so that is like 3 power per alembic use, more than a ton of skills of anything, does picking a herb cost power? Making jewelry or forging?

So interesting. So, first some people are suggesting how to favour a trade over the other implying that recollecting herbs requires almost no effort, that is easy, etc. Someone even suggested that it requires for an alchemist to drop anything he she is doing to go to the Alembic and do their trade. Has it ever occured to you that the same is for every trade? Forgers cannot take the forge with them, jewelers must forge within a room (if I am not mistaken), cooks too. So all of them must drop what they are doing to handle their trade. As for herbalists... One, I could just as easily harvest simply satisfy my needs, every herbalist could. Two, I could make quests or anything else as a substitute to make gold. Three rather than walking around trying to search for the herbs, and wasting a lot of time picking one herb one by one... I would rather focus on hunting. So every trade has an effort factor within them. Every trade depends on another to satisfy a need. Now, if you wish to insert a power factor that may be encountered within Alchemy... stressing how others don't have it. Good, allow the divines to change that, and have them require no power. BUT, an interesting thing is, that no one as long as they belong to a city (Particullary Serenwilde, because alchemists are exclusive to Serenwilde right now), they can always get a regular dose of power. It is not like you are giving mass quantities of your health when making elixirs, giving you the additional risk of dying when you are making the concoctions.

Please read back in the thread and look over the potions ingredients list I posted. If you think an alchemists being able to gather a few items, and I am talking about 4 maybe 5 at most To use in place of the very rare herbs which we cannot get, is going to kill any trade between an alchemist and herbalist then you're maybe underestimating just how dependant we will still be on herbalists. The herbs that are only useful for alchmey will still be useful for alchemy, the herbs that are easer to purchase will still be useful for alchemy. However, the herbs that alchemists are finding it hard, if not impossible to get hold of will be replaced. So instead of having all the herbs for a potion except horehound, which means we cannot make that particular potion. We will have all the herbs for the potion plus syrup which we will have gathered ourselves. A novice asked on ct earlier if anyone wanted to buy 71 empty vials. He had picked them up from somewhere. 71 of them! this is because bob is still the only regular and realiable source of cheap health. it's cheaper and quicker for people to buy 20 vials from bob then ask around for an alchemist able to brew 20 vials of health. That is 80 horehound. there's not many, if not any, alchemists I know of that could supply 20 health refils to one person.

for example, regenerate potion. Ingredients: arnica 5, flax 5, mistletoe 3, sparkleberry 2, chervil, 2 kombu 1. If we had a substitute for sparkleberry, we'd still need the arnica, flax, mistletoe, chervil and kombu. Herbalists still have a market for sparkleberry as it is a desireable edible cure. It's not going to kill your trade at all, we'll still be dependant on herbalists just not quite as much. And it will help the flow of potions a bit more.

Has anyone thought of a quality stat for each potion refill? For example, each potion created doesn't give a set amount of health back when sipped, but has a quality to the mixture that Alchemist make at random, much like forging, which increases with skill. Have Bob sell about 30% quality potions which would heal about 170-270 health and the Alchemists capable of making 40-50% quality earily on, and later 80-90% quality mixtures.

Also, perhaps substitution on some ingredients is possible. For example, if don't have the required herbs for the recipe you could throw in a few other herbs for a lower quality of mixture. And, why not have the Alchemist capable of mixing like potions? That would create an insane demand. For example, a health and mana mixture together which dilutes the effectiveness of the health and mana, but restores a bit of both.

One of the problems with the idea of trans being able to produce a superior quality (we already do 60 sips as opposed to 50 for not trans) is that lower level alchemists will find it impossible to get work. Who would want a 50% quality potion when they can ask around and get a 100%, assuming the herbs are available of course. Those that don't have alchemy to trans need to get work so they can buy credits and learn more, not be set at more of a disadvantage because they didn't have a credit card

It doesn't matter if simply two herbs are the ones that can only be used by alchemist, but not by anyone else. If an alchemist can find a replacement, even if they only seek it when they need it, then you make the herbalist's harvesting of said herb useless. You cannot have any trade find outside subtitutions because then you favor one trade from the other. And as I keep saying, if you amass herbalists alongside with alchemists, you can make sure there are herbs available for everyone. It is as if you have been making my point that if mutually depending trades organized we would have a solution to our problems. One, there would be more herbs, two that would mean more elixirs, three better prices for everyone else to buy.

I have an idea, why don't alchemist have the power to brew up gold to satisfy their monetary problems, brew up panacea to heal every and any affliction, then brew up an elixir to make anyone near immortal or simply allow them to escape near death from just a sip?

Hm... all this rant made me think of an institution. The Ellindel Arbotoreum Institution for Preservation of the Plantlife and Research.

There is a greenhouse in there already, so why cannot herbalists go there, pay a yearly rent fee, replant herbs in there to increase their ability, and have a greater control to see who harvests what, and be able to farm their herbs so the population of the word finds no lack of herbs. Also, with a research team that gathers to research plants,and investigate their curative properties fully, and coming up with amalgamations with said plants helping them counter diseases, impediments, hunger, and promote overall good health, substituting entirely alchemy? Even if the herbalists of said institution should need one regeneative vial to compare effects of the amalgams and mix them to create better cures? This would be great for everyone.

Ah, I forgot to mention this. The more herbs of a type a potion would need, for example you required 1A, 1B, and 1C, could thicken an elixer with 2A, 2B, and 1C and raise the chance of a stronger dose. Thus, the weaker potions would be much, much cheaper in the long run since we could balance it to equal about 300 more gold for a chance 7% increase of potency. But, adding 1A, 1B, and 1Z would get the potion made, but it would be diluted for a weaker variant.

Although it would be almost the same as all the young herbalists trying to pawn arnica on me.

Trust me, you are wrong in here. As long as non trans alchemists having no work. First of all, as long as someone can make health refills... mostly everyone will be happy. People wouldn't care if they can only get 50 sips. Hey, they can make for certain that the people who can provide more health elixirs is sufficient. No need to bother searching for a trans refiller. Also, without a group organizing... a herbalist can partner with an alchemist agree that the herbalist will provide him very very cheap bulk herbs in exchange for elixirs (even if it isn't a trans concoctionist), and make a deal. One would have herbs for their potions, the other a small profit but the elixirs they need. As for credits... I am not trans herbs, just up to marjoram. I could horde any herb I can, bulk, sell it to someone, and have enough gold to purchase IC credit. Or just weevil my way to 20k (as I have been doing) to learn the skills I want/need. It is far more better for people to be able to satisfy a need, as long as they satisfy it, than simply saying that only trans can make commerce. An organization would team all traders, make herbs more available, sell at an adequate price, team to prevent overharvesting and make sure they replant... make elixirs more available and herbs more available to the public.

Now, with regards to Bob. Let him at least make health vials of 40 sips, non trans alchemists vials of 50 sips, and trans vials of 60 sips. Can you see how this can be balanced out?

Ah, by the way... as prices go. Let us say an organization gathers and says herb x will go for y amount, to the public, and then they may sell herbs to alchemists at z amount to have a good amount of elixirs available. Then we have our middleman Bob, who sells wares at 300,400,500. People who refill trans, can either sell things higher, or lower than Bob and because Bob would be less quality or more expensive than everyone else... people would try to furiously seek trade elsewhere. This include people seeking non trans concotions. Trust me, with 3-5 health vials, a mending vial... I am covered.

EDIT: This means that an individual who doesn't require much of anything could be content with whatever quaility and price the wares are as long as they are better than what an already stablished organization named Bob sells. More people able to make most sought out elixirs means more content peoeple. It is not like people will die if they don't get trans refills.

Ok, maybe you're thinking these replaces are like wildcards? like we could use it to substitute whatever we have missing at the time

One more time then I will stop posting here because I'm getting dizzy from running around in circles

Alchemists will exchange horehound for syrup. And only horehound, for syrup. We'll STILL need the other herbs, just not horehound. All those other herbs that are used in alchemy only, you'll still have a market for them. all the herbs that are in reasonable supply, you'll still have a market for them. The herbs that are rare and due to that rarity are holding back potion production. You'll still have a market for them with the general public, just not in the alchemy line. I see absolutely zero threat to herbalists trade here. You're not able to supply the herbs that we need.

Alchemists will have say up to 5 different herbs that we use taken out of the equation, and replaced by something we can gather ourselves.

I am not sure I'll ever understand you... You want what is best for your trade. I want what is best for mine. You want to make your trade more available for everyone and less expensive to make. I want to make my trade more available for everyone, and ensure that people aren't ripped off by a diminutive market. You want to organize your trade, I want to organize mine. One trade compliments the other, one trader needs of the other to satisfy a need. Why not unite this seperated trades onto one group of individuals that would have a greater chance to practically work as a factory satisfying eveyrone need? Rather than always leave prices, availability at random at the hands of very few individuals? If you cannot understand the facility of what pertains to work as a group, how can you expect to organize your trade and make it better if you cannot arrange agreements with the OTHER trade that is in direct contact with yours?

And as I said. If horehound can only be useful to alchemists... and herbalist can harvest such herbs... BUT if alchemist no longer require the horehound because they can acquire a substitution elsewhere... So the horehound should be nullified? Its benefits negated? The commerce of said herb by herbalist rendered void? I can imagine someone stock piling 1000 horehound but with no market to sell. Because we must be honest, people want profit and avoid high expense. So, people would zealously be seeking ways to horde said substitution, just as herbalist have been overharvesting for herbs seeking ways to better their trade. EDIT: Actually, rather than improving their trade, simply seeking ways to increase their control over their market by claiming to whom they sell, and seeking a better way to increase their profits because no one will be able to stop them from selling at very expensive rates.

HOREHOUND: (eat) reckless, healthleech, dissonant

It has value as an edible cure. I have never suggested that the Alchemists replace any herbs which are only used by them. Our problem is we are competeing with the rest of the world for horehound, they want it as an edible cure, we want it as an ingredient (incidentally we'll still be buying horehound as a cure for ourselves) Herbalists are not going to lose a market if the alchemists can find a way to replace -some- of the harder to get herbs

the following are herbs that alchemists use and are not used as edible cures. I would not seek to replace these so the herbalists still retain their market. I also believe some of these are used in cooking, and in the case of mistletoe in guarding herbs

Flax , Weed , Sargassum , Sage , Rosehips , Juniper , Merbloom , Mistletoe

Some of the herbs we would want to look at replacing as ingredients in potions are in the following list. They are edible or smokeable cures that are needed by everyone


13.7.4 AFFLICTIONS AND WHAT CURES THEM

Healing is an art in and of itself. Note that some purgatives heal similar
ailments as herbs.

Herbs
-------------
ARNICA: (apply) fractured arms, broken wrist, broken nose,
broken chest
YARROW: (eat) hemophelia, lethargy, relapsing, bleeding,
cut arteries
CHERVIL (eat) clots blood
CALAMUS: (eat) slickness
HOREHOUND: (eat) reckless, healthleech, dissonant
REISHI: (eat) pacified, aeon, peace, powersink
GALINGALE: (eat) addiction, generous, lover's curse, gluttony
COLTSFOOT: (smoke) impatient, lonely, shy, anorexia, masochist
PENNYROYAL: (eat) confused, dementia, hallucinate, paranoid,
stupidity
MARJORAM: (eat) weakness, rigormortis, torn/sliced muscles/tendon
KOMBU: (eat) clumsy, dizzy, epilespy, vapors, hemiplegy
pierced nerves (arms/legs)
WORMWOOD: (eat) agoraphobia, claustrophobia, hypochondria,
vestiphobia
MYRTLE: (eat) sensitivity, vertigo
FAELEAF: (smoke) aura of rebounding
FAELEAF (eat) blindness, deafness, sixth sense (Special: faeleaf
cures blindess and deafness if you have one of those
ailments, otherwise it gives sixth sense)
KAFE: (eat) gives alertness
SPARKLEBERRY: (eat) restores health, mana and ego

Tsigany means the ones that have general use in the cure department and are rare because of that fact should be able to be 'replaced' by say, syrup, in a potion, which will not affect the market for herbs as well as enable alchemists to produce cheaper health.

You guys are making me want to make an herbalist who's graced and belongs to no guild.