The point was that if Warriors were left sucking, then everyone would quit being a Warrior and become a Mage. Now being a Warrior is more of a viable option.

You missed the entire point of my post, Neale. I wasn't advocating leaving the warrior sucking. I was advocating leaving everyone else the same, and bringing the warriors up to their level.

And you missed the point of mine. If you continue to bring everyone up to fix imbalances, eventually everyone will have the equivilent of zapping and there will be no point in playing. Downgrades will happen sometime.

Everyone bitching should read that, I think. It makes the point perfectly. The Problem wasn't just Warriors not doing enough damage, but it was also the fact that Mages were able to do so much to warriors. Saying its unfair that a Warrior can do 1k dmg with 17 strength to someone without Greatrobes, but thinking its totally ok for a Mage to do 1200 to a warrior is just loopy.

You can't just keep beefing everyone up, because then you have to start beefing mobs up, and beefing people up even more, and it turns into one giant cluster f***

By weakening people now, they have the room to strengthen them later. You don't need a throw a tantrum because you lost ONE ability... Its not liked Warriors didn't lose one too. The only way for them to fully test the changes is to institute them in the real game. Just give them the rope they need, and if they hang themselves, fine, but if not, at least you don't look like a bunch of ungrateful bastards.

This ignores the fact that Warriors afflict while doing damage. And not only that, but the effects of their hits are cumulative (deep wounds, leading to nastier types of damage and excessive bleeding). And on top of that, in order to cure the stacking damage, one must sacrifice the ability to sip health/mana.

Mages (and Guardians) should do more damage per hit because when they do damage, that's all they do. There are a few exceptions, such as the measly damage from Warrior Tarot. But overall, a Mage/Guardian has to choose to either do damage or afflict.

You are forgetting about the passive afflicting that Mages and Guardians do. Mages in their demenses, and Guardians with their pets.

So then in order to be a remotly practical combatant, I have to run SCREAMING to my demesne and hope you come with?

As an aside, they took out the geomancers earth shield, and left us with "pulse" one of the most decorative spells I've ever seen aside from illusions "sparkle". I feel less and less like the "offensive mage" my guild was claimed to be.

Well, I dont claim to know everything about the Geomancers' skill or any other non-Ur'guard class. But it seems to me that Mages are meant to fight in their demenses.

What are the limitations on forming your demense in any location?

For Aquamancers, demesnes have to be formed in water or flooded rooms. For Geomancers, in tainted rooms. It takes time to taint or flood a room. It takes more time to meld to the room. It takes even more time to put up the effects (like jellies, icefloe, etc for Aquamancers) that are the point of having a demesne. If you're getting jumped or otherwise attacked outside of your demesne, you're hardly going to have time to do all this.

Well, for starters, it takes two actions to do it, one to alter the terrain and one to actually meld - which may not seem much, but if someone detaints/deflood/deforests (or whatever) it, it takes two actions to get back. You can't actually do that if there's more than one adjacent room of the same type, but that encourages planning, so it can only really be done on the defensive, as it doesn't work so well in enemy ground. And the other problem is that only one person can use a demesne. So if they die, or are incapacitated, or just don't have as many skills as the next dude or aren't even THERE during a given combat, the whole thing's kinda messed up. I'm not gonna make any judgement calls on that one, but those are the main flaws. I assume it has some darn good strengths though, judging by the people that bother to trans aquamancy over say, illusions or runes.

Aquamancy is very nice, if you're in your demesne. But most of the better skills don't work outside it. Even the escaping skills (like Bubble) don't work outside it.

Well I feel obligated to jump in, since my name came up.

I actually had 19 strength at the time that happened. I'd died twice accidently stumbling through a rift *cough because guards hit through ghost still cough* so I wasn't a lich at the time. 17 +2 from athletics and possibly 1 more from fortuna, I couldn't tell you.

Second, I have LEVEL 3 SLOW BALANCE. Which means you are getting hit FAR less often then attacks from ANYONE ELSE. Since this was group combat, that fact isn't always clear, but when you have a lot of time between my hits, and anything that puts me off balance does so for much longer, there are weaknesses to counter my strengths.

Third, I can and do miss.

Poisons don't always work.

I'm hitting you in the head with a 19 strength with trans skill. I think it should hurt. And it didn't hurt you nearly as much as magic damage hurts me.

This cracked me up. You should do more damage then knights? Pretty much ALL the warrior class can do is swing their weapons at you. If we hit you enough you start getting afflicting with various injuries. And that's IF we hit you. Knights don't get entities or spells, or demesnes. Damage is what we're about.

And then add in the fact that you can parry, shield, put up an aura of rebounding, etc, to stop our damage. I can't do anything to block your magic. AND your spells don't miss.

An unintentional result of the change seems to of been making bashing universally harder for everybody, we can't use all those wonderful defenses against mobs either now!

Eliminating all defensive skills was a problem, not a solution. What knights needed was a higher accuracy, and a damage increase. Or at the very least, for someone who has lost a limb or has a cut arterie, to practically bleed to death unless they heal. And the healing should be a slow process, nothing like apply this apply that, wait one second and now you have a new arm back. If over all, knights dealt 25% more damage than we used to, armour protected 15% less, accuracy were increased to a by a 6/8 ratio everything would be fine, and finally chances of afflicting were increased by 65%. Everyone would had their useful defenses to hunt, knights would actually be able to fight and hunt more productively and there would had been no loss.

I do wonder whatever started these tweaks.

I can't bash where I used to anymore... Toughness got nerfed and replaced with fitness, which I can't fathom the usefulness for unless suddenly they plop down a glacier or a volcano somewhere that causes environment damage.

And Draconis is now a magic damage buffer... to augment my other magic damage buffer resistence?

Draconis... I am not sure how good it is protecting magic, seeing how projectile attacks aren't taken into account. As you say, unless the elements suddenly derive consciousness and start beating everyone... Fitness isn't needed, at the top of that, any other skill that work similar to Fitness are needless. All of us already can wear clothes to protect ourselves from inclement weather, and count with caloric/frost. In case of a great storm, all we need to do is seek shelter

I hope they reversed these changes they recently made, it would be for the best. I am also sure that the majority would preffer to get the defences back, and perhaps tweaked down other than replaced.

Ok, I just read through all your posts, and you sound like a bunch of whining idiots. First of all, Fitness protects against fire and cold damage, which means it helps against rockeaters and Spectres, those are the only things I hunt besides eels, so I'm sure they affect other attacks and skills as well. Second, before this change, the average damage done by a mace swinging tae'dae (suppoesdly the big buff fighters who are really really slow) was 200 damage, 500 if I hit the right body part. Thirdly, your saying half your life was taken away. What level are you exactly? because at level 45 I have close to 3K health. If your not level 50 and your doing PvP damage means nothing.

If all your skills only work in your demense, that should tell you something about a demense. Your suppose to have one and stay in it. Its like druids in their groves. And any magic user can kill me in 3 hits, and the only thing I can do about it is be lucky with a low magic circle and running. Ofcourse if you strip my shield I don't have balance back untill after you zap me.

Curing against a warrior type special damage or afflictions is actually fairly easy if you put some thought into it.

And I am one of those people who was greatly thinking about quiting the warrior archetype if these types of changes arn't made. I chose to be a Tae'dae so I can "smash dings" not so I can get zapped by any magical attack and slap you on the wrist with a "not nice, you not hurt me" responce.

I believe one warrior was fighting Visaeris, who was a nihlist and doing a total of 50 damage to him per hit. If you upped the amount of damage a warrior did, he would then be doing maybe 100 damage, and Killing anyone without defences at level 30 in one swing.

The Tae'dae are slow, but they have the greatest defences around, plus they heal for a ton of damage. So there shouldn't be much complaining. Yes, knight damage needed to be increased, no one has said otherwise... I think. The defences we previously had could had been reduced, armour reduced, and damaged increased, plus people being more accurate. This means, knights hit harder and everyone still have good defences against mobiles and average defences against pvp, especially if the current defences were tweaked other than removed. You say Fitness helps against rockeaters and eals? Big deal. As you say, curing afflictions from a warrior type can be easy. Just as easy can it be applying caloric/frost to make up for Fitness.

One possibility, I am positive was overlooked, was that instead of replacing the past defences was making them higher to acquire on the skill ranks. Everyone here offered their point of view regarding the matter, there is nothing idiotic on that. In fact, most of the posts sound reasonable. Conclusion is: damage needs to be increased, accuracy increased. But instead of removing every single defence, they should've either made them more difficult to acquire or reduced their defence power a bit, along with making over all armour less protective. This would had been a great alternative. Which would have most happy


EDIT: By the way, daganev, sweets. Of course you shouldn't be complaining. You are an undead Tae'dae. This means that you at once have a level 3 cutting damage, level 3 blunt damage, heal faster from elixirs level 3, a nice coat that guards you from ice level 3. You also may posses armour, putrefaction, and in the past toughness along with Draconis. Also, being undead you get an additional upgrade. So tell me, other than complaining about probably wanting to be more accurate and fast... why would you complain? Complaining about us complaining is nothing.

I second Rabidcow's statement... sure, knights now kick my butt better, good for them. But how long do I spend fighting them, compared to bashing? My (useful, sole defense against physical damage) Stoneskin ability is now gone and replaced with Stoneweight, which does the exact same thing as about five other abilities - gives mass, basically.

Bah, I say.