So uh, those who say good and evil are absolute, tell me this: is cannibal killing a missionary to save his (cannibal's) starving child from death good or evil?

As for Celest and Magnagora, I'd hate to see Mhaldor/Shallam kind of RP also. What should be, IMHO, is that Celest and Magnagora both powerhungry cities seeking to build their empires while Serenwilde oppses both of these goals.

I so wished we'd see some more fanaticism from New Celest come out of these events. I'd like to see Celest and Magnagora as two sides of the same coin, struggling for the same thing, spreading the Light/Taint, believing in the Light/Taint and generally do anything to let the Light/Taint cover the whole Basin of Life.
Magnagora has done some hideous a deeds in the name of the Taint, but when I thought Celest killed those Fae in the name of the Light, it turns out they all apologized for it later. Apparently, they want to be the 'good' city, and as we've established time and time again in this and previous threads, Magnagora isn't a city of evil, and New Celest isn't a city of good.

If all the players decide to roleplay the city as a shining good city, then, you know, that's just fine. But it could yield better drama, more involving conflict and roleplay in moral grey-zones if they would just go with the same zeal as Magnagora is showing, just 'the other way around.'

Oh and another thing, I think Erion played his character in a truly remarkable fashion. Blindly following the Light, or what he thought the Light was, makes for wonderful conflict, and as we know conflict breeds drama, and that's what we're here for. Not to have a place where we can snuggle and play with our friends, but a place where decisions brings about change and poignant effects on your characters. I don't want people to be black and white stereotypes, I'd rather see them as moral grey archetypes.

I agree with all your points except this one:



I think by massively throwing themselves at the much greater army of Magnagora, knowing they'll die over and over without any personal gain out of it at all, they've shown plenty of fanaticism and devotion.

The problem is, that they dont NEED to have died from it Thorgal - most of the time Celestians die because they are stupid - not because of superior forces.

Our universe is moral only because humankind has decided that it would be so. If i was the woman who killed humankind, who would be left to judge me ?. Would i be evil for killing so much innocent sentient beings, or would I just be me, the last representant of humankind. Judging me to be evil, would be like judging all humankind to be evil because I would be, then, all that humankind would be about... the last and only human on earth.

"Good, Evil" is just a system of reference among others, mostly occidental, and there are so many other civilizations, and this system of values should not be mistaken with our innate empathy. We instinctively know when something is bad, wrong or sweet, does it means that this something is good or evil.

And roleplaying is all about empathy, feeling or sensing, if not displaying the inner weakness and inner strengh of a character.

Or, very few are willing to show the weaknesses of their character.'lust for power, arrogance, stupidity, lazyness, lack of ambition, shyness, weak combat skill are frowned upon under the dictature of excellence when they should be treasured and deemed as valuable then any other excellent trait.

It doesn't matter if such lusternian city is evil or good, because while some are playing for the pure adrenaline rush of the pk experience, others wants to experience or emulate the roleplay background.

And the coders have worked too hard in order to create a world with a dynamic balance of powers, for us to just take the easy path of good/evil or the gray path.

You are actually wrong again...Kethuru's objective when in control of the Taint and even before that may have been to see the end of all life in the Basin, we seek only to be in control of all life in the Basin. That isn't evil and if it were, well then Rome was evil, Spain was evil, England was evil, China was evil and anyone else who ever attempted to create an empire is/was evil. It's simply not true. And I am sure the Light was aiming for prosperous life when they slew the Fae right? Mmhmm so back to my point.

I know, I just referred to the fanaticism and devotion, stupid or not, they died dozens of times for their city, they kept going back in, knowing they'll die, even if it'd be stupid, it still shows they're willing to bring any offer to their cause, especially if you think about the huge experience loss every death brings. I'm just saying this, cause except for a very small handful of Mhaldorians and Shallamese in Achaea, I never witnessed a massacre like yesterday...In achaea they'll only fight like that if there's an event with no exp loss, having to lose herbs is the highest price they'll ever pay there, despite experience loss being greatly reduced in achaea.

You can't escape what the original purpose was from Kethuru, it's apart of his being, not its own. And, it's still rather evil however you look at it to try and control life. I don't care about Rome, Spain, England, or China. They might just be evil. Further, I did not support the slaughter of those fae, and it was a grave mistake they all made. I did try to stop it before it began, and my words were not heeded. I am sorry for their actions, and hopefully we can fix the mistakes they did. What they did was evil.

Kethuru isn't evil, Kethuru just eats. There is nothing evil about eating, the fact that you would not want to be eaten does not make it evil, I doubt the last animal/plant you ate wanted to be eaten either.

And therein you hit upon the point. Celest was evil. Magnagora has been evil. Serenwilde has been evil. They've all also shown flashes of compassion, and good. This is a lust for power, a careful balance as everybody tries to improve themselves. The conflict comes from the fact that to strengthen oneself, one must harm or weaken another.

Evil and good has no place in describing the cities and communes. It is all a matter of goals, and how far each person is willing to go to acheive them, hm?

Don't be ignorant. Kethuru was evil.



You're assuming the City condoned what some did, don't be ignorant. Infact, most of the City didn't know it was happening, and I wasn't able to stop them alone, and I wasn't about to start yelling across ct and make a scene, though I probably should have.

Good has a place in Celest, it stands for the Light and Good is embodied in the Light. Evil strives for the strength of itself, Celest strives for the strength of the Light. I don't know what Serenwilde is doing.

Celest can be fanatical and still be sorry for the Fae. Those of us who killed them -thought- we were doing it in the name of the light, and that is why we did it. -Had- that been the case, I would not have regretted it. I would still have been -sorry-. Compassion is part of the Light, you can't really argue with that while Raziela, you know, exists. Thus, even if we believe we're doing it because we must, we still don't have to -like- it.

However, as it turns out, it was a mistake. We were misinformed and did not think to double check what Erion told us. Because it turned out to -not- be necessary, and did -not- further the Light, we should, and do, feel terrible about it, as a group. Murdering beings for no reason is definately something Celest -should- be sorry for. That said, I find the whole thing rather interesting. Many people keep insisting that they are disappointed, people who weren't -there-. It is easy to look back and say "That was wrong, duh." But had they been there, many of them would have probably believed, as we did, that it was the words of a Supernal that led us to our actions, and if we claim to follow the Light, who are we to presume that we are more wise than Elohora or Japhiel? Of course, the people who think we did wrong aren't wrong to say that, either. That is their roleplay, and I have no problem with it. I just find it interesting to see how people react.

As I see it, Celest is 'good' whenever it -can- be good. We certainly try to be compassionate and wise, and follow the values the Supernals represent. But we are not -only- good. When it comes down to it, there will be times we have to do things we don't like to further the Light. I -hope- we will, anyway. I would rather have liked it if it had turned out that killing the Fae -was- what the Supernals wanted. It would have been a twist, and we would have been able to prove that Celest will go pretty damned far to serve the Light. It would have been interesting to roleplay being haunted by what we -had- to do, but not regretting doing it.

Anyway, I've gone on too much by now, methinks. I just think there could be a lot of neat angles to this.

Spoken like someone who either hasn't bothered to read any of the Lusternian historys (they were called soulless for a reason) or just doesn't understand the definition of evil isn't 'stuff I don't like'.

I read them. Perhaps I didn't see as wanting to eat civilization after another as being Good, or neutral. I could be wrong, I do suppose! If Someone wants to will they were good, I'll gladly agree, but until then it just seems a _bit_ evil to want to eat everything in sight, including races and civilizations - what an apetite!

Alot of people here try to make the Taint out as innocent people, just trying to make it to the next paycheck.. Wtfuck is your problem?! The Taint is far from Good, and so was Kethuru.

Evil Checklist, for your viewing pleasure and as an all-around guide to know if you're evil or not!

Unreasonable want to kill and maim without remorse?
Taint - CHECK!
Kethuru - CHECK!
Celest - Perhaps the want to kill and main the Taint without remorse, but good reason to nonetheless.
Serenwilde - I dont know what these guys are doing.

Spawned by a Soulless God for the purpose of destroying Life in the Basin, and for what reason other than personal gain I can't see,?
Taint - CHECK!
Kethuru - Is said Soulless God.
Celest - Nope.
Serenwilde - Nope.

Destroying innocent beings and without remorse, further making it known you care only for your own existance and everyone else can give themselves a swirly?
Taint - CHECK!
Kethuru - CHECK!
Celest - We've slew innocents, but we understand that we were at fault, we regret it, and hope to fix it!
Serenwilde - I dont know what these guys are doing.

So, by this tally of questions to understand were YOU stand on the good/evil scale, we have:
Taint - 3.
Kethuru - 3.
Celest - 1/2, we starred in one of these, I'll take ignorance as half a point.
Serenwilde - 0. I dont know what these guys are doing!

Now, you could say this is all biased, and that it's just a perception or opinion if you're evil. Well, the definiton of evil..

e·vil
Morally bad or wrong; wicked: an evil tyrant.
Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful: the evil effects of a poor diet.
Characterized by or indicating future misfortune; ominous: evil omens.
Bad or blameworthy by report; infamous: an evil reputation.
Characterized by anger or spite; malicious: an evil temper.

Trust me, you fit most of these. This is not something you define, this is pre-defined. You're evil, whether you care or not.

Now, there's no straight definition defined for what Good is because it's a make-up of so many traits. Someone can be good at painting, and that be a good thing, but when we refer to Good it's a generalization of your actions as a person. Everything you do decides whether you are Good or Evil. I'm not one of the most 'Good' people simply because how I talk to most of you, but the motive in my actions is there. I have good intentions. Kethuru didn't have good intentions.

Just to .. mock you a bit Mordrin..



Aww, poor baby was just hungry.. Lets give him a whole planet..

The fact you ignore here is we don't wipe out and commit genocide on a species or civilization. We take enough that still allows the population to survive, and so do they.

A large misconception I'm hearing here, is that Magnagora seeks to end all life. That's waaaaaay off. Were the taint still an extension of Kethru(I think that's right, the bastard soulless god who wants to eat us all), that would absolutely be true- but it's not, and it's not. We're in control of the taint now.. and it can be turned like a rudder, this way and that. It's simply a power source now, like light is to you- and I know that light means much more than that to celest- I just mean, you empower yourselves with the light, same as we with the taint. We wield the taint, not the other way around.. I think I'm being redundant. Nevertheless, we want mad ownage, but not a wasteland.

Rafael, would you consider a roc, or some other large animal (who has no point in life than to stay alive and reproduce) evil?
What if they arent intelegent enough? Is it possible to be eviil without choice?
I havent read the whole history, I admit, but it seems to me that Kethuru was made to eat - it wasnt his choice, just his instincts which controll him. Is that evil?

Good and evil, as stated early in this thread, is a little misleading to the RP intentions of the game. Celest is religious, about compassion, tolerance, pacifism, zealotry, a 'without mercy or malice' approach to the world it's trying to shape. No-one suggested the taint could be purged by treating Magnorians as though they are just misguided. The history talks of the sacrifice of the gods and the legacy of Avechna - a story of fierce and artful battles and uncompromising valor and there has to be room for this approach in a city like Celest.

I think it's a less cloudy message than Aetolia, but we should introduce more religion in the city, make room for the different factions, maybe following the ideals of the supernals.

Interestingly, if you look at the histories of Project Cosmic Hope, Kethuru's presence in the Taint is described as "evil" and "malevolent", as well as "hungry". This quote is from just after the Taint was unleashed:



I think an interesting twist might be that the Magnagorans believe that they have control over the Taint now, and believe that they are able to use it as a tool to power their own ends. But it won't be the first tool that turned on its owner.

Kind of reminds me of the fantasy staple, the summoned demon

Actually, just to add my little bit, I play may Celestian as the equivelant of a Lawful Evil. Will he do anything to further his own cause? Most definitely. He would kill or manipulate anyone in his way when it comes to restoring the light - including other citizens of New Celest. Does he have any remorse for the Fae? Not the slightest. The shot at Nil may have fallen a bit short, but it was a shot none the less, so the "innocent" Fae were casualties of war as far as he is concerned.

Now, I did say he is the equivelant of a Lawful Evil character, but as far as he is concerned, he is 100% pure, and rightfully so. The Communes are responsible for the Taint to a large degree, as they had the ability to save the strength of the Light, but, as far as he is concerned, it is the Wilder's fault that it managed to take the hold that it did. He sees them all as Tainted and Entropic. He is an advocate of Light, Order, and Civilization.

Now, is he evil? Its really relative. As far as he is concerned, and based on his reasoning, he is a 100% holy crusader. To anyone else? He is no better than a Magnagorian.

I really like your pick of RP, Fallen. To me, it seems like it would take a lot more effort and will to play it that way, when you could be simply be like a lot of people and offer full remorse for the Fae and have certain RP values carried over from real life or elsewhere.