Estarra has stated that insults are not pk-worthy through avenger system. However, I love Dumihru's suggestions. Especially the Rexali kills Dumihru in Sea of Despair part....

There's never a good way to codify insults into an automated PK regulation system. Unfortunately, it's one of those things that people need to either grin and bear, or just deal with the consequences of retaliating.

Eww, I didn't know the pacification was THIS long...should just increase the exp loss by dying to the avenger, if you're losing 150% per death at level 75 cause of the avenger, you WILL turn on pk careful VERY fast, and all completely out of free will. Being peaced sucks the shizzles, it's no different from being shrubbed, can't bash, can't influence, can't spar, can't defend your friends, can't duel, can't fight...it's way too harsh, AND will chase many many people back to achaea, aetolia and especially imperian. The prime plane is the only plane that's interesting to fight on, as long as there's no alternative to the prime plane, pacification is just gonna ruin things.

edit: gaining suspect or vengeance for insults is completely rediculous, since you can just snub the person, and you really won't get nightmares from the one insult you heard before snubbing him.

Shoot fire, with all the nifty increases to Avenger-ness, and my enemies willingness to kill me, I'm going to have all of Magnagora pacified, on purpose.

Some call it metagaming, I call it 'ha ha'.

I'm terribly bored of being peaced. Can a God tell me how long this lasts?

If the largest reason for pking is insults, the realm has a serious problem. Maybe in Achaea or something, but here there's plenty of other reasons for perfectly valid PK.

Apparently alone in an ocean, I think the Administrators are right to make some drastic changes. There really was too much fighting on Prime.

Sounds like this will really help curb PK. I'm gonna give it a while to really make an impact on players' behaviors, and then give this place another shot.

What I see needs addressing, though, is the fact that so many people think that PKing is the ONLY way to deal with raids on villages and the ONLY way to deal with people insulting them, etc.

Pacify is a great step toward showing PKers that there are consequences to murdering people... but they should see other options. I don't know if there are any other actions that can be taken though. (Aside from snubbing an insulter)

Are there alternatives to stopping the harmful effects of raids, aside from killing the raiders? Also, what effect does killing the raiders have on the village, after the fact that the village was already raided... the damage was done, right? Now it's just vengeance? Sounds like a lot of hot-headed people out there that think PK is the only RP option to the conflict between the cities.

Perhaps finding ways to solve conflicts without PK will help put it back into its RP place in the world.

Ummm...yeah, if cities decided not to kill people who raided villages, villages would just be bashing grounds with guards in them. You kill raiders, even if the damage is already done, as you say, to deter them from doing it again, to deter other raiders and, if there are still things left alive in the village, to protect them. It's not just vengeance.

I would put this in comparison to the alternative, which is issuing PK and having gods deal with it. This means less god time put into spending time with mortals and building new areas. It also does not improve impartiality since anyone who has dealt with PK issuing knows that it is far from a fair system, often times based on reputation rather than facts. (If you have a bad rep with the gods then they always rule against you, even when you are in the right, etc.) And it becomes subjective, where if one god thinks such-n-such is a good reason for PK but another does not then you could get two different arbitrary outcomes based on who deals with the issue. If a god doesn't like you then maybe you'd get temporarily maggoted or shrubbed for acts that the avenger pacifies you for today. This is in addition to having a thick rulebook of valid PK vs. invalid PK that the gods would use as a guide in laying down their subjective judgements. That is the alternative. So if you don't like this system, ask yourself if you want that other system since that is the only alternative.

In my opinion, PK controls are like taxes. They are necessairy, but there is no good system; there is only the "least bad" system, of which I believe the avenger qualifies.

These are precisely the reasons that I appreciate the Avenger system. After a lot of thought, the only thing I still think is a bad call regarding the Avenger system is the pacification of the Avengered. This is bizarrely harsh, especially considering how long it seems to be lasting. If it has to be kept, a blanket 30 minute pacification would be the best compromise.

Also, the suggestions Dumihru posted earlier on proposed tweaks to the Avenger system strike me as extraordinarily sound ideas.

There is great effect to killing raiders, including but not limited to deterrence, recovery of dropped commodities, ceasing immediate additional damage to village, etc. The damage is not done instantly (usually) it takes some time. Each loss in a village directly alters the village output. This is especially true in situations like the dwarves...Celest kills undead dwarven miners to have them returned to their home village. We kill those dwarves and have them raised as undead. There are a finite number of dwarves, and having miners=you getting commodities, which drive the economy. It is not just vengeance.

I think PK for insults is and always has been stupid.

I think every one of Dumihru's ideas are good ones.

Why? I mean, yes, those are the two alternatives on the table, but since we're sticking with Avenger, why bother making the comparison, other than to bolster the argument that, flawed though it may be, what we have now is better for the game as a whole than straight issues. Hell, I agree with this! All I'm saying is that I don't think the system is working to the best of its ability at this time, and the full scale punishments that the system deals shouldn't be put into place until there is a larger consensus on whether it is working at a level that makes the most people who are actively affected by it feel content with its presence. Yes, I know we had a referendum on this already. But I really have to question the results of something like that. Conducting a referendum for the entire world on how the Avenger system is working and basing decisions on the results is akin to asking the entire US population whether the pay scales for White House employees are representative of the extent of their duties. Too many people have no real idea of the system to make an educated judgement, so the results become skewed by ignorance.

The most people who are actively affected by it are all those people who have had to call avenger in the first place for being PKed, and those people who are scared to come to Lusternia because some bloodthirsty person is running around killing everyone.

Sorry, I should have been more specific. Actively affected by its negative repercussions, which is the topic on the table last I checked.

I'm with Iggy on this one. I think it will help a good deal to drop down the amount of PK on the Prime, which is exactly where the Gods don't want it to be.

There is the astral after all, ass well as other planes.

Personally, I say, make it so that you can't be set upon anyone's list if you are doing the PK within your citiy or its territories(the villages)(liekwise you can't get them if you fail and die), or if your in an uninfluenced village. These places are to be defended and fought over respectively.

pah, my posts allways seem to get ignored when they are the last one on a page. Go to the end of page 2 to see what I'm talking about.

this post is just to make sure I'm not last on the page again..

I've noticed a lot less people being killed by the Avenger recently, and even less so now that these changes have started. Which means that people are avenging less, which PRESUMABLY means people are randomly PKing less. So I guess it's worked after all.

EDIT: That's probaby it, Daganev, thanks for the hint. Man, I'm going senile at 16

Conglutination = Congeal = Jelly