Ulterior motives or otherwise, your argument that it doesn't benefit Fainites to do that implies that it doesn't benefit Eventru-ites to have it the way it is, because right now you're declining, and if it were changed they'd decline.

That doesn't seem to measure up to normal standards for what benefits people though.

I tried to make this point, but you did a better job. Yay.

I think the real issue afoot is pride. Right now, Eventru's Order can gloat that it would smash Fain's. If it got changed, Fain's Order could gloat that it would smash Eventru's. In either situation, neither is going to accept so it's really nothing more.

It doesn't benefit anyone right now because it won't be used, unless it is forced on us. Narsrim is trying to say that we, the Fainites, want this change because the current setup leans more towards Celenwilde, which is just not true. The mutal agreement interferes with that. It's a stalemate.

It will be used, and thus people will benefit, if it is changed to strictly Order v Order. Nocht can fight Isune and the non coms can slapfight eachother to the death.

edit: No, it's simply a matter of what will be used as oppposed to what will go the way of weakenings and aetherspace.

Psh why would Eventru's order gloat if the ass beating requires your friends?

I have quite clearly stated over 7 pages that I recognize the advantage Eventru's Order has in this current setup and likewise recognize the advantage Fain's Order would have in the suggested. Furthermore, I have maintained that the situation would be the same regardless of which is used.

The bottom line I'm making is: IT DOES NOT MATTER. If you have a solution, post a solution. However, trying to shift the odds for no reason other than to shift them doesn't do anything except afford one party gloating rights.

I suppose that's possible. I'd like to see exactly what orders would be willing to fight right now. I suspect Maylea would stomp Nocht, Fain would stomp a bunch of stuff, Charune might do ok (except they can't)...I don't think Isune even has ANY fighters these days, whereas Nocht at least has Exeryte and Synl.

EDIT: Actually, maybe Maylea and Nocht would have a shot...eh. Not knowing their list it's hard to say.

I'm curious why you think it will be more used as order v order? The same issues apply. There are no orders out there that are strictly equal in terms of number of combatants or the skill level of those combatants. At least I can't think of any that might actually be inclined to fight each other any time in the near future. Unless of course specific events are created to add some RP drama to urge people to overcome their self-preservation instincts in the name of order pride. But that would work just as well with the current setup.

For the record I prefer order v. order as we have enough org based conflict. I just don't really think it would actually make the system any more feasible or attractive than it is currently.

Well. They could gloat that they HAD friends willing to go along and help them ass beat.

I think there would be more of a chance for the system to be used than there is now. Will the extremes (Fain or...Isune I guess) be involved? Probably not, but as it stands, NO ONE is going to be involved because it's a Nil raid with divine essence loss(again, unless Fain cracks the whip and makes us...which he very well may).

It's not an ideal solution, and certainly won't fix the issue entirely, but it may at least result in some level of involvement.

I must go to bed now, so I'll recap my stance.

As it stands now, this is what I forsee happening:

Fain: Arr, Eventru, we're comin' ta pillage yer lands.
Eventru: "kay, let's do this, dawg.

So, Fain and Eventru are standing there, Fain with his pirate crew and eyepatches galore, and Eventru with a bunch of home boys from da hood.

Home Dawg: Yo, 'tru. They gots more gangbangers thans us, what we gonna do, huh?
Eventru: Tru dat, go get my pimp hat and cane and call up da Crips, we gots to get some bodies up all in dis joint.

Then the Celenwilde Crips come walking in, chains, broken bottles, and boomboxes beating out mad beats. Eventru starts busting moves.

Thoros: Arr, Captain, they be bringing more boys to the fight. What shall we do? Arr?
Fain: Tap some kegs, matey, and drink some grog. Then go send a pigeon to the Glomdoritos and their raptor mounts and bring the Noodly Followers of Morgfyre on board.

Now, the whole Basin is eying each other up. And Estarra sighs and turns to Roark and says: "Look, it's just another day in Lusternia. Celest/Current Ally, versus Mag/Current Ally"
And Roark serves her a dry martini as she reclines on her beach chair and says, "Of course, Mistress, just the way we planned it."

It doesn't matter what noble intentions are first laid out, the fact of the matter is that someone is going to bork it up.

It should be Order versus Order, period.

Closing off the Realms for everyone except the two Orders, hrm. A few images immediately come up:

1) declares war on Elostian
2) Ashteru accepts the war with a bloodthirsty growl
3) Ashteru standing on a pile of skulls, fending off the ordermembers and the tag-along zerg with a huge waraxe. Saaga and Arel cower behind him and try to toss a sphere or two, or in Arel's case, sing a little ditty or dirge depending on how many heads fall.

EDIT: 4) We get raped by the zerg and Saaga remains weeping on the broken pillars of the Cathedral of Twilight, ever mourning her charge, now lost. She will be henceforth called the Mourner of Twilight and there she will remain until death claims her.

Stupid admin forced Rp.

Right I see what you're saying, I just don't understand why you think it. People will still want to win and unless they think they will they aren't going to accept. (barring gods of course) Does it matter if they're outnumbered by 100 or by 5? They're still going to lose. I don't know, you could be right. I just can't think of any participants at the moment without divine urging regardless of the mechanics.

You keep saying that and I understand why you feel the need to but it's not really accurate. From my recollection the Serenwilde and Celest still actively disliked and avoided each other until they started teaming up to ward off attacks/get revenge for attacks from Magnagora. No admin was holding a gun to their head. But I'm sure that's been said many times before. You'll believe what you want to believe.

Well, I can't point at two current Orders and say "these two will fight." I don't know if any actually will. (maybe Morgfyre and Terentia?) It's more of a guess because it's a bit of an unknown area for all of us. It's always been all of them vs all of us and Order vs Order would be limits on things we just aren't used to.

I guess what I'm trying to say an unknown chance is better than no chance. If there is a better solution out there, I'm all for it.


Of course, I may be saying all this for nothing. It wouldn't suprise me in the least for Fain to laugh and throw us into the Celenwilde zerg tsunami.

Fain's Order does not contain the most active Magnagorans. Just because other Gods are not present doesn't mean that their orders have died.

That's what YOU think.

Mm, end capping gesture.

So, Estarra changes things, because they got boring once more.

Fain is looking to pillage more Divine, and eyes up Terentia.
Terentia sees Fain eyeing her up.

Terentia says: Malicia, Fain has either been trying to look up my steel skirt, or is eying me up for combat. Go forth and train our Order to be a fighting force.
Malicia says: As you wish.
Paladins say: This is not going to be a good week for us.

Malicia says: Terentia, we may have killed half the Paladins who were willing to learn how to fight properly, but we now have the forces to equal his.
Terentia says: Excellent.

Fain thinks: Do I want to say I was lookin' up her skirt, or that I be wanting a fight? Arr.
Fain says: Terentia, I be wanting to pillage yer booty.
Terentia turns to Malicia and says: Who knows what goes through that warped mind?
Terentia says to Fain: I accept your challenge.

Estarra turns to Roark and says: Did Fain want Terentia, or did he want to fight her?
Roark says: Who knows what twisted thoughts Fain dwells upon in his schemes for power?

Maylea, sitting in a field, gets word that Nocht wants to fight. So she sends a card to Nocht saying: "No thank you." and invites him to tea.
Nocht insults her tea, saying it tasted funny. Maylea orders war.

Maylea's Order fights for her because they want to. Yes, they know they may all die, but they insulted her tea and they fight. Yes, they are going to get screw over, but they want to fight.
And eventually, one of Maylea's flower grows thorns, and Nocht will learn the next Order war, that one should be wary of the thorns of a rose.

With it Order versus Order, it may be unbalanced. But if the Order wishes to fight, it will train fighters. And even if you do bring fighters in just to fight, you will have to deal with the person crossing the god. Fighter or no, the god will kick them out if they become a bother.

Wrong. 99.9% chance of us not caring/logging in for the duration of the order war if she accepts when we can't possibly win. There will be no recruitment drive. Who are we going to recruit? You have to remember that it's not just training or drive, these people have to actually purchase the credits (gold or cash, who cares) and level, on top of everything else. You can also lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. You can hand people the keys to the kingdom, write out katas, maneuvers, show them how things have to go, and yet they'll still end up losing. Why? Because you can't teach them to improvise or teach them to react. That's something that they have to develop through repitition and also not getting one-rounded by a pile of arti'd demigods.