I ask quite often, I think any member of DoK can attest to that. But upon reading submitted reports, there can sometimes be huge lists of comments. I can't keep up with that simply by asking my envoy.

I also don't think it's wrong of me to want to get information, which shouldn't be hidden, from the source, rather than through a potentially biased representative, and be able to peruse it at my own leisure. You make a case about reading comprehension, but how can I possibly read something with comprehension when I would be getting the details in a paraphrase?

I think this thread is getting derailed. Perhaps we can get back on topic and make a separate thread elsewhere on whatever it is that we're discussing (frankly, I'm not sure!).

Me either.

I detract my ranting.

Don't you mean.... retract?

Maybe.

It sounds like people are complaining about the fact that the change to web was a last day ninja comment, and that not enough people are able to read the reports prior to submission to catch them. But I could be wrong.

It sounds to me like a lot of Envoys need fired and replace with people who will do the job. Gregori's comment is irrelevant other than he did in fact contribute whereas others did not.

Give me the Ur'Guard spot. You know I'm good for it.

I'll be honest and flat-out admit that I forgot about the wiki. It was broken about a month or so ago, and I hadn't used it since. Since I play off-hours a lot, I tend to miss the reminders, so it completely slipped my mind. My apologies for my screwup and failure to contribute to the special report.

Ninja changes less than a week before report submission have always been bad mojo in the envoy community. Given a certain willingness to further upgrade one of the game's most overpowered skillsets, one must wonder why that envoy would be upheld as a standard of good envoyship.

See Ninjakari after momentum. Also, read my quote.

See, that would be a better place for Narsrim to be directing the ire.

Except Narsrim has great Ninjakari reflexes and absolutely no problem whatsoever fighting them...

However, I think your point was largely irrelevant. If the skill was so poorly regarded, it was the job of ALL envoys to make suggestions. It doesn't matter if Gregori made a ninja comment. In fact, I think any claim that it does is just a knee jerk. This was an important report, and all envoys should have been making suggestions and comments about what was and was not in need of fixing/review/etc.

I'm not an envoy (obviously) but a week doesn't seem very ninja-y to me. If you're not able to check the suggestion site for a whole week to notice that someone made a suggestion that you might not like, maybe you're not active enough to be an envoy? I could see if the suggestion was thrown up two hours before the deadline or what have you and was taken by the admin. That would be a ninja change and probably rant worthy cause there's no way that everyone'd have a chance to contest the idea in two hours... but a week? Really?

Excellent point. Many of those envoys posted plenty of times on forums during that week. Why can they post on forums, but they can't read a report and post suggestions?

Except that since it has been introduced the general consensus was delete web, regardless of what it is replaced with? I looked at the wiki several times, it came up on envoys several times, and I was under the impression all of the envoys agreed that a no-balance/eq web was too strong. It can be combined with too many things and too many situations (just like no-balance/eq trample) that create unintended gaps in curing during solo fights. So yes, I was completely surprised when web mana cost was increased versus being removed.

So why didn't you make a post suggesting it be removed? As I understand it, there as no such post. A conversation doesn't count for much if you don't make an actual suggestion.

But, was 'remove it' actually written for an official suggestion on the report? Cause I've only read of two suggestions in this thread. One to turn it into a little stun and one to increase the mana to use it. Nothing about removing it.

It seems like, if it wasn't, that everyone who was part of that consensus must have assumed that either A. someone had surely already written it up and then never went and checked or B. assumed that it was so well-known that no one actually had to say it so no one did and so a suggestion that was written was one that was chosen because of course only suggestions that are actually made would be considered.

Saying everyone says something doesn't count for much if no one actually says it.

And Narsrim so 'd me!

Because someone else did. As far as the wiki is concerned, the SOP is to reach a consensus and one person posts, since it is prone to clutter. The page is down quite often, as was experienced earlier in this thread just checking timestamps. Personally, I thought we were submitting even before Gregori's edit came in, that suggestion certainly wasn't even discussed on the normal channels, just thrown on the report.

The counterpoint to "more resource" is obviously that all it takes is once, be it web/sap, web/hackdown, web/stun, web/grab, web/shackles, web/hangman, blah blah yadda yadda. Same as trample. Bad, bad, bad on its own balance.

If you change it to stun, you've removed web-entanglement, haven't you?