How is a Celestine supposed to kill anyone with Soulless Tarot if it costs 1p to throw? I mean why should Crucify (7p) be a viable means to lock someone down for a Soulless but Inquisition should not considering that currently, you can freakin cure Heretic and Infidel.

Apply some setup outside the Inquisition line? Holy crap what would the world come to? Crucify->Soulless has a far less chance of working than Inquisition->Soulless when you hit the Inquisition stage.

Desi is right, I don't even bother with crucify soulless on the grounds that the person can usually writhe off (lol if they are a contortionist and you want a sac or soulless kill) and then somersault/leap/wind(but you can do this on cross amirite)/ghost pretty much anything to escape the soulless. Its better luck chancing it behind a blackout.

Like what? Celestines just don't have that much offensive power going for them outside of Inquisition. They can't heavily afflict. They don't get passive afflictions like Nihilists (coldaura, contagion, sting). Absolve is fairly easily to avoid. Celestine damage is terrible. Judge is nice in group, but it is fairly worthless 1-on-1.

Likewise, I disagree that Inquisition ensures a Soulless kill. You have 2-3 seconds to act before Soulless goes through. During this time you can easily ghost, dominate an action, evade, mantra wind, fling rad, demesne center (if in meld), shadowdance flight, hermit, spore, etc.

=====+=====

Nihilists can make crucify as nasty as Inquisition - it just takes some work. For example, quicken (3p), enter room, order target action, darkchant crucify (7p), fling soulless with demon set on shackles. It's very effective and can be modified to be even more effective with stuff like Carcer and Rubble from Fall Tarot.

As an Aquamancer, I fought Ceren in a FFA once when he was Tarot Celestine. He used all 100% of his reserves trying to Inquisition and never was able to do so (or kill me). It's really fairly easily to avoid if you know what you are doing.

Currents/whirlpool/bubble?

Also, was this before protection scrolls?

I don't know, something about this feels like details are being left out. Were you going full-out trying to kill him, or just hindering / stopping every time he went for an inquisition (stopping your own offense at the time and essentially resetting the match)? Demesne classes have a lot of advantage with the latter as has already been noted.

I didn't need to use any of those. In fact, I didn't have the power to do so. I just used demesne center. Over and over. And over and over. When I can instantly pop 20+ rooms away and you have to swim to get to me... I'm usually in decent position and well healed up. Then I just run all the way back across my demesne and fight from the far fringe again.

And this was post protection scroll. As for whether or not I was hindering, I was -moving- every timed he tried to Inquisition because that's how you avoid it.

With a few exceptions, most classes can easily avoid the Inquisition/Soulless setup. There are a few people who don't have an easy way out, but most of Lusternia does. Celestines/Paladins/Aquamancers/Tahtetso/Shofangi/Moondancers/Hartstone/Shadowdancers/Nekotai/Blacktalon/Ur'guard/Nihilists/Geomancers/etc do. It's potentially arguable to add Spiritsingers/Cantors/Harbingers/Cacophony to the list as well. You can somersault/handspring/airpike to get away quite easily.

Okay. So, basically, you weren't fighting, and you were using a skill (plus effects) that made it very difficult for him to get anywhere near you to finish it off. Which many other classes don't have to the same degree.

It's already been noted that trying to pull it off against a Demesner (mostly Druid was discussed, but the other classes are effective too as you point out) is extremely difficult.

(Since when does Currents take power?)

I really don't know how you are able to extrapolate the situation so well when you weren't present.

I was fighting him. In fact, we fought for over an hour going back and forth. When I was about to be Inquisitioned, I moved. Likewise, the discussion was regarding Inquisition/Soulless as a kill. It doesn't matter if you have a demesne to hinder. I never had an issue with it as a Moondancer against Amaru because I could just pooka him right as Inquisition ended to cancel Soulless. The same can be done with Telepathy. Various other classes can just instantly leave the room.

You seem to be focusing on minor, insubstantial points avoiding the subject at hand. Is this intentional?

I'm pointing out that you're justifying it based on skills you had at the time which were unique to your archetype, and which not everyone has. "Instantly leaving the room" isn't as much an option with appropriate setup beforehand, which was Desitrus' point. Which is still quite valid.

I'm not seeing a counter to that anywhere in your posts.

I'll break it down by archetype and who has what then since you seem to have trouble piecing it together:









All of these can easily beat the delay between Inquisition ending and Soulless killing. This is largely because the balance to racial recovery nerfs makes it no longer possible to stack Mugwump with Celerity to kill right as the delay was ending.

Now as you can see, it's not one guild with one specific set of skills and a demesne. It's most guilds.

And there is no real way for a Celestine to setup to stop any of the above except monoliths for hermit/spores. You have 3 seconds to move. All of those methods are instant except Somersault. The only affliction that Celestines can give to slow you down is paralysis. You can somersault while paralysed so that's moot. The rest can be done by focus body/action still with time to spare.

Yeah, it is not actually that hard to avoid inquisition with most classes if you know what you are doing. Though in a lot of cases you do have to spend power to do it.

With varying degrees of effect, as you note yourself.

The ones with the greatest ability are, obviously, the demesners. Passive abilities alone can destroy the entire attempt.
Then the classes with forcing which can't really be blocked.
The others? Such as airpike/somersault/evade? Somersault is timed. I also don't think Evade works regardless of afflictions / setup (though if that's wrong I'll concede it-- I just imagine I'd be hearing a lot more complaints if it was like Mantra Wind).

I disagree with your assertion that these active abilities are all "easy escape from Inquisition/Soulless," if it is properly set up.

It's not so much the avoiding Inquisition as the soulless after it hits if you let it.

Running away and letting them waste their power before that is not really difficult for anyone, no.

Please state, in graphic detail, what this "setup" would be naming the specific afflictions in the Celestines arsenal that would be involved and how to stall for 3 full seconds to prevent something like Shadowdance Flight or Evade.

I'm fully capable of explaining my arguments in graphic detail because I had Inquisition/Soulless down to a science, and I know how often it failed. I'm curious to see how you do with your hypotheticals.

And clearly if this is so game breaking, I'm sure the other 10 people reading this thread can help Xenthos out with a detailed example?


EDIT:

@Xenthos

And I'm going to be rather if you can't answer a simple question to explain why you have been arguing and disagreeing.

Honestly, I saw Amaru put more effort into making it stick than I ever saw from you. You usually just tried to go through the chain with maybe a little bit of preparation beforehand. Amaru would actually try to go through afflictions to get enough of a lock that you'd have difficulty getting away after he fired it off. Combination of aeon / blackout / web / other afflictions... though the Handmaiden did help tremendously with his setup. He also did this as a race other than Mugwump (I think Loboshigaru?)

Curing has gotten better since his days and it's harder to stick aeon and the other affs, but still.