Daganev2009-03-23 05:47:13
QUOTE (Caerulo @ Mar 22 2009, 10:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
To point 2: Could you clarify what bad logic is he using? Is it with reference to his plan, or his other posts?
@Shiri: So what if the Joker knows who are the abnormals? How would such knowledge help the Joker?
My second paragraph was in response to your post that says that the Joker's priority would be to convert as many scum as possible. I'm disagreeing with that, seeing as scum wouldn't help the Joker win if he is dead, unlike what you said.
@Shiri: So what if the Joker knows who are the abnormals? How would such knowledge help the Joker?
My second paragraph was in response to your post that says that the Joker's priority would be to convert as many scum as possible. I'm disagreeing with that, seeing as scum wouldn't help the Joker win if he is dead, unlike what you said.
It was in reference to his voting for me for talking about no lynch in a hypothetical sitution which doesn't exist. And for his long list of options, none of which included the idea of Jack winning if he is lynched.
Unknown2009-03-23 05:47:22
QUOTE (Shiri @ Mar 23 2009, 01:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
In fact, Unvote: whoever I'm voting. Vote: Daganev. Even if my reasoning was somehow bad, you can't deny that it's in the joker's interests NOT to have Jack die, since his win condition is dependant on abnormals. Daganev trying to avert that (and attacking someone voting for Jack, and pointing suspicion at a person trying to get Jack lynched in the long run) is definitely scummy behaviour.
You got it reversed. The Joker doesn't want as many abnormals as possible. He wants as few vanillas as possible.
Daganev2009-03-23 05:48:09
QUOTE (Solanis @ Mar 22 2009, 10:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If we lynch a mutated townie, that means we're not lynching a vanilla townie. Jester wants us to lynch as many vanillas, makes his job easier.
Sure, on day 3. But on day 1, it makes no difference.
Shiri2009-03-23 05:48:35
QUOTE (daganev @ Mar 23 2009, 05:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
What? The Joker could care less who dies and who doesn't. As long as it isn't him. Especially this early in the game.
That's not true at all. The Joker wins when there are no vanillas left, right? When everyone remaining is an abnormal? That means having Jack alive, regardless of whether he's a jester, an SK, or a bomb, contributes towards the joker's win condition.
@ no lynch reasoning: wat. Hold on. Firstly, if there's a difference between having 2 non vanillas and 1, it's that we're more likely to hit one with a random lynch. Except you don't WANT to hit the second non vanilla so the reasoning you're using clearly isn't the reasoning you're stating. Secondly, no lynch is bad even in like a 3 vs 12 game with mafia. It's bad because the town only has lynching as a way to gain ground usually. Even MORE so here because we don't have cops and we lose -2 people a night (-1 vanilla +1 scum).
@Caerulo: the knowledge helps him because then he doesn't lynch the abnormals...because they help his win condition...
I think you're confused about the scum. There's no conventional scum in this game. So it's in the joker's interest to convert as many vanillas as possible to abnormals and leave them alive.
That said, am I missing a line somewhere where the joker only wins if he's alive? Traditionally you win if your faction wins even if you're dead, but I might have skipped something in the rules...I'll double-check.
Unknown2009-03-23 05:49:23
Why doesn't it make a difference whatever day it is?
Jack2009-03-23 05:50:23
QUOTE (Silferras @ Mar 23 2009, 05:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Also, if you look at Jack's argument, he's completely convinced that claiming what he claimed will give him complete immunity to lynching. Given that he believes that we all will follow this view, what's the disadvantage, in his opinion, not to claim?
Unknown2009-03-23 05:50:49
QUOTE (Shiri @ Mar 23 2009, 01:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That said, am I missing a line somewhere where the joker only wins if he's alive? Traditionally you win if your faction wins even if you're dead, but I might have skipped something in the rules...I'll double-check.
Hrm, I had not considered this possibility. I'll think about this some more.
Unknown2009-03-23 05:51:01
QUOTE (daganev)
?? Nobody comes forth with information. People give off information with thier actions. The Joker, and one other person now know that they have unique win condition. They therefore act differently than they would otherwise. That is all.
Okay. I get what you mean, and if we were on the second day or later, I would agree with you. However, this is the first day and we have no prior voting behaviour or actions to base anyone's play on, especially in the case of comparing who has changed allegiances.
Jack2009-03-23 05:52:52
Also, Shiri seems misinformed about the nature of this game. Lynching me will kill two pro-town people. I might already be "a mutant" (THANKS FOR THAT BY THE WAY DUDES) but the person I take out with me will not be, and that means one less person for the Joker to convert. In addition, no it isn't necessary to kill me for the game to end, for the town. If we manage to lynch the Joker today, the game is over, because I am frigging pro-town for the last time.
Shiri2009-03-23 05:53:37
QUOTE (Caerulo @ Mar 23 2009, 05:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hrm, I had not considered this possibility. I'll think about this some more.
I'm not seeing your POV anywhere in the rules in the other thread or this thread, so since the way I stated is how it works in like every game I've played on these forums, it seems safer to assume it works that way.
Unknown2009-03-23 05:55:16
QUOTE (Shiri @ Mar 23 2009, 01:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm not seeing your POV anywhere in the rules in the other thread or this thread, so since the way I stated is how it works in like every game I've played on these forums, it seems safer to assume it works that way.
I assumed that the Joker role was more like a Survivor's role, and like I said, did not consider this possibility. I'm gonna have to rethink my logic for a while.
Unknown2009-03-23 05:57:48
QUOTE (Jack)
Also, Shiri seems misinformed about the nature of this game. Lynching me will kill two pro-town people. I might already be "a mutant" (THANKS FOR THAT BY THE WAY DUDES) but the person I take out with me will not be, and that means one less person for the Joker to convert. In addition, no it isn't necessary to kill me for the game to end, for the town. If we manage to lynch the Joker today, the game is over, because I am frigging pro-town for the last time.
The question is, what are the chances that we'll be able to lynch the Joker today? Since that's out of the question, we'll need to see it from the POV of the Joker's win condition - convert all vanilla townies. Since you're a convert, you're one step towards the Joker fulfilling its win condition. I don't think it's misinformed for the town to eliminate you to prevent the Joker from winning.
Jack2009-03-23 05:58:39
What are you on? How does that logic make sense? By lynching me you're helping the Joker because you're wiping out a vanilla townie in the process. How can I explain this any more clearly?
Unknown2009-03-23 05:59:14
If you're not a jester, see: Shiri's long logic table.
Fania2009-03-23 06:00:01
QUOTE (Jack @ Mar 22 2009, 10:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Also, Shiri seems misinformed about the nature of this game. Lynching me will kill two pro-town people. I might already be "a mutant" (THANKS FOR THAT BY THE WAY DUDES) but the person I take out with me will not be, and that means one less person for the Joker to convert. In addition, no it isn't necessary to kill me for the game to end, for the town. If we manage to lynch the Joker today, the game is over, because I am frigging pro-town for the last time.
The only reason I see to kill Jack at this point is if we have suspect he's a SK or know he's the Joker. We don't have that info, so let's not kill him just yet.
Unknown2009-03-23 06:01:50
Another reason could be that we have no one else to lynch.
Jack2009-03-23 06:03:31
Hell, you'd be better off voting to lynch a lurker or a random than me. Better to hit off a vanilla with a chance to get the Joker than assuredly wipe out a vanilla and a (albeit "mutant"... jerks) pro-townie.
Shiri2009-03-23 06:04:59
QUOTE (Jack @ Mar 23 2009, 06:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hell, you'd be better off voting to lynch a lurker or a random than me. Better to hit off a vanilla with a chance to get the Joker than assuredly wipe out a vanilla and a (albeit "mutant"... jerks) pro-townie.
We can't just take your word for it that you're pro-town and not an SK though.
That aside, what do the rest of you think the odds of Jack being a jester are given how he's played it so far? Personally, I think it's unlikely, but it is a possibility.
Unknown2009-03-23 06:05:37
Nothing's ashored!
Well, we can make the person who casts the final vote be Shiri. That'll work.
Well, we can make the person who casts the final vote be Shiri. That'll work.
Jack2009-03-23 06:06:46
Would I Lie To YOU?
*waggle*
*waggle*
